Avantgarde Horn Speakers

[sbnx]

Hello Adagio,

REW has a bit of a learning curve. There are quite a few videos online that can help. As suggested you want to zoom in so you can see more clearly where the ups/downs are. As you are adjusting the DSP for the bass unit I might suggest that you only look at the frequency range up to the or just past the crossover from the bass to the midrange unit (somewhere around 300 Hz is typical). A good frequency response would be +/- 5dB in the bass so if you can get the peaks and valleys to fit in that band then that is good. (1/24 smoothing is good to use in the bass)

There is a physics limitation on the waterfall plot. We can not see high resolution in both frequency and time. I would suggest 20Hz to 100Hz or 100Hz to 200Hz etc. Also, Ideally, you would have a 40dB drop in the first 300ms. I notice on the graphs you showed that it is displaying the noise floor. Set the Y-axis to 5dB over your max to 40 dB below your max. for example if your max SPL is 86 dB then select the max Y value of 90 dB and the min Y-value of 45 dB.

When adjusting the DSP on your fantastic speakers keep in mind that it can be used to reduce the peaks but DSP can not (typically) be used to raise the valleys.

~Todd

 

[mallen123]

Thanks for your feedback mallen123. When you referred to the Duo Mezzo with Basshorn, were you referring to the full size basshorn XD? (as of course the Mezzo's already have the short basshorn integrated into the speaker).

Btw, have you heard the Trio XD with twin basshorns? And if so, what were your impressions? Cheers.

Bodhi - sorry for late reply.
I was not referring to a Duo with separate full size XD Basshorns ( the curved ones that stack on each other) or the short basshorns.

As you know, Duo Mezzo's have an integrated short basshorn in place of the standard 2x10 or 2x 12 subwoofer on the lower range Duos.

XD refers to the latest style built room integration electronics and I believe it applies to all their speakers subwoofers now, including the basshorns.

So Duo Mezzo XDs are the latest version Duo Mezzo models and their 2x12 basshorn has the room integration electronics built in.

I guess buying the separate short basshorn would be an option with lower model Duos, but I think Duo Mezzo's or Duo Primo's would need a really, really large room to require additional Short or full size basshorns. In that case, Trio's and either multiple short or full size basshorns would be a better option.

My 2014 Duo Mezzos only have adjustable crossover and volume to blend in the basshorn with the mid range horn. It is a fantastic speaker and really solved the bass integration issues of my Duo Omegas with 2x10 subs, but did require four corner ASC Tube traps to clean up the bass energy causing one note bass. I would assume the later XD version would not require the bass traps.

I have not heard the Trio's with Basshorns- either pre or current XD. My room is 15 by 23" and not really big enough for Trio's, so I've not a made a point to try and audition them.


The major downside of Duo Mezzos is the foot print is about twice the size of standard Duos, they weigh quite a bit more and they require custom crates for shipping due to the unique dimensions of the Basshorn.

 

[mallen123]

Duo Mezzo side pics and unpacking Basshorn module from original crate

 

[Folsom]

Midbass horn would be a better description. I think bass is a bit disingenuous as it has no effect on actual bass frequencies. It's purpose is clearly to make the crossover point more horn like.

 

[mallen123]

Midbass horn would be a better description. I think bass is a bit disingenuous as it has no effect on actual bass frequencies. It's purpose is clearly to make the crossover point more horn like.

The Basshorns runs 23hz to 140 hz, so seems to me it does impact the Bass, but yes, it does integrate better in the 140hz mid bass range with the horn midrange horn than a conventional subwoofer in the box.

Regardless - Avantgarde calls them Basshorns, and the XD denotes built in DSP.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

The Basshorns runs 23hz to 140 hz, so seems to me it does impact the Bass, but yes, it does integrate better in the 140hz mid bass range with the horn midrange horn than a conventional subwoofer in the box.

Regardless - Avantgarde calls them Basshorns, and the XD denotes built in DSP.

I doubt there will be any horn loading with that horn below max 70hz.

 

[Folsom]

The crossover is at 170hz according to AG. The bass may play to 23hz but that doesn't mean the horn has any effect on it whatsoever. In fact I bet the horn size is approximately 20 inches (including face) because that'll make it horn load exactly at the crossover, and hence provide horn sound at all crossover points. This is based on the fact that at 170hz you need 19.5 inches of horn to effect that frequency as a horn (170hz is 78 inches long, and to horn load you need 1/4 of that). The declining horn effect below the crossover frequency will transition nicely to the sub effect. And hence, it's really a midbass horn on the drivers that play sub to midbass.

I'm being technical. It's a beautiful speaker. I'd like to hear it sometime.

 

[mallen123]

Folsom and Audiophile Bill - I'm sure you guys are correct about the horn loading below 70hz.

The width at the mouth of the horn where it turns flat is about 20". The inner width of the horn cabinet is 22".

So it's not a true Bass horn, in the sense of the giant monsters with a compression driver that take up a whole room.
Basshorn is simply AVs name for these as opposed to their 2x10 and 2x12 subs that are not horn loaded.



FWIW -
I've also heard the Duo Grosso (the next speaker down from the Mezzo ). Same mid range and tweeter horns with 2x12 drivers and 1000 watt amp in a conventional cabinet. While it wasn't as mid bass integrated as the Duo Mezzo, I also felt the deep bass wasn't as extended as the Mezzo. Might not be due to the horn cabinet of the Mezzo, but there was a difference in bass extension.

Could be different 12" drivers or amps as well but I don't know for sure. Maybe the "Basshorn" 12 " drivers are different and optimized for speed and extension if they don't have to have the same throw length as the 12" drivers in the Duo Grosso 2x12 subwoofer?

As an aside - these specific Duo Mezzo's were at the May 2014 "The Show in Newport Beach" with 50 w Audiopax Maggiore amps in one of Alma Audio's rooms.

While the 50 watt Maggiores are spectacular, and Robert Hartley gave the room great praise, I felt the demo music chosen by AudioPax owner was too eclectic and the room was way too small to do the Mezzo's justice. When I requested Herbie Hanckocks Future Shock, I noted several listeners perk up and start toe tapping.

Anyone is welcome to hear these if you're in SoCal. I'm in South Orange County. Just PM me.

 

[bonzo75]

Bodhi - sorry for late reply.
I was not referring to a Duo with separate full size XD Basshorns ( the curved ones that stack on each other) or the short basshorns.

As you know, Duo Mezzo's have an integrated short basshorn in place of the standard 2x10 or 2x 12 subwoofer on the lower range Duos.

XD refers to the latest style built room integration electronics and I believe it applies to all their speakers subwoofers now, including the basshorns.

So Duo Mezzo XDs are the latest version Duo Mezzo models and their 2x12 basshorn has the room integration electronics built in.

I guess buying the separate short basshorn would be an option with lower model Duos, but I think Duo Mezzo's or Duo Primo's would need a really, really large room to require additional Short or full size basshorns. In that case, Trio's and either multiple short or full size basshorns would be a better option.

My 2014 Duo Mezzos only have adjustable crossover and volume to blend in the basshorn with the mid range horn. It is a fantastic speaker and really solved the bass integration issues of my Duo Omegas with 2x10 subs, but did require four corner ASC Tube traps to clean up the bass energy causing one note bass. I would assume the later XD version would not require the bass traps.

I have not heard the Trio's with Basshorns- either pre or current XD. My room is 15 by 23" and not really big enough for Trio's, so I've not a made a point to try and audition them.


The major downside of Duo Mezzos is the foot print is about twice the size of standard Duos, they weigh quite a bit more and they require custom crates for shipping due to the unique dimensions of the Basshorn.

Hi just on the room size point, 23x15 is a very good room for trios. While it will work in a bigger room as well, I have heard them in a similar sized room with two bass horns

 

[wil]

The Basshorns runs 23hz to 140 hz, so seems to me it does impact the Bass, but yes, it does integrate better in the 140hz mid bass range with the horn midrange horn than a conventional subwoofer in the box.

Regardless - Avantgarde calls them Basshorns, and the XD denotes built in DSP.

Actually they go down to 18Hz -5db

 

[morricab]

I doubt there will be any horn loading with that horn below max 70hz.

Yeah I think the whole point is a kind of hybrid sub with horn loading where it is critical for a smooth transition between it and the mid horn. I think this was also done with Altec VOTT designs and also Tannoy Westminster (which also back loaded for deeper bass).

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Yeah I think the whole point is a kind of hybrid sub with horn loading where it is critical for a smooth transition between it and the mid horn. I think this was also done with Altec VOTT designs and also Tannoy Westminster (which also back loaded for deeper bass).

Similar to Swings which can’t load below 150hz

 

[mallen123]

Actually they go down to 18Hz -5db

thanks Wil for the correction - my bad as i was remembering the specs of my original Duo Omega G1s with the 10" subs

 

[spiritofmusic]

Just returned from another visit to Blue58 and Duos Omegas install par excellence. Daizas under SGM and Aqua Formula. Duos continue to excel. One of the great affordable tastes of truly stellar sounds.

 

[remdeck]

Guttenberg is very impressed

 

[Blue58]

Just returned from another visit to Blue58 and Duos Omegas install par excellence. Daizas under SGM and Aqua Formula. Duos continue to excel. One of the great affordable tastes of truly stellar sounds.

Cheers Mark and thank you to your friends for introducing me to at least a couple of new artists. I hope I didn’t bore them with the jazz.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Barry, they loved it. I'm assuming the smiling thru gritted teeth indicates that LOL.

Sorry I tortured you w The New Avengers theme tune.

 

[KeithR]

[QUOTE="mallen123, post: 590121,
Anyone is welcome to hear these if you're in SoCal. I'm in South Orange County. Just PM me.[/QUOTE]

PM sent

 

[spiritofmusic]

And what amps does Mallen use w his Duos?

 

[mallen123]

And what amps does Mallen use w his Duos?

Nara VPA, Audiopax 88 mk 2, and Firstwatt J2 for casual non critical listening.