Avantgarde Horn Speakers

[morricab]

Brad, noise is already down w different 6n23p tubes in my pre. I could look at different driver tubes in the monos. Tbh it's a new concept to me to alter gain w varied tubes. I'm not even sure what I'd be looking for.

FWIW, The General rejected Nat Magmas on his Pnoes. Too noisy as well. Mayers dead silent in comparison. And certainly if I went the horns path, 46 or 45 tubes would be the choice. I really would not need 70W in my room on 107dB.

For sure you don’t need 70 watts, I am just thinking how you can change speakers and keep the amps. I was surprised, frankly that this tiny WLM amp (it is smaller than many of today’s headphone amps) does so well on the 110db horn. Not dead quiet but definitely enough and it sees the driver directly! Sound surprised me too. By not having to worry about much below 700hz it can really sing. Keep in mind that whatever amp you use won’t need to do bass with AGs...bass is powered.

 

[Blue58]

Marc could keep the amps as doorstops

I’ve heard the little MicroZotl M3 is also quite impressive on AG.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Nats are excellent space heaters as well. Greta Thunberg would blow a gasket if she knew about our hobby.

 

[Blackmorec]

I had a pair of AG Trios with the Omega upgrade, followed by a pair of Duos in a smaller room, all driven by Balanced Audio Technology VK-75SE, Rex, VK-D5SE and VK-P10. No problem with noise, despite all the tubes. None. Almost perfectly quiet, other than what I used to laughingly describe as a soot fall every now and again which was a sort of low noise rustle/flutter for a few seconds every few months. I used to drive the 4 subs with the high level VK-75SE output so I got nice continuity between drivers and top to bottom coherence of sound.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Nats are excellent space heaters as well. Greta Thunberg would blow a gasket if she knew about our hobby.

NATs would be excellent for biamping and powering bass.

 

[christoph]

Nats are excellent space heaters as well. Greta Thunberg would blow a gasket if she knew about our hobby.

Good one

 

[Maril555]

I have Avantgarde Duo Omega G2 and Lamm ML-2 SET amps- no hum or noise period, zero, nothing.
You put a ear directly to the Twitter- nothing, dead quiet.
I use AVg in semi-active configuration with a pair of JL Phantom 112 V2 subs with an active Pass Labs XVR-1 crossover, (Avantgarde only get 80 Hz and up signal), and it is significantly better, than AVG own subs.
It has also solved some major room related bass issues.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Maril, good to hear of so many quiet AG installs. Blue's situation is similarly dead silent. Unfortunately I come to any tentative horns decision not blessed by this advantage.

My own issue re AG are hogging this thread, I've said the last I'm going to about my personal situation.

Any move to AGs or other horns will have to incl amps in the deal and thus another 50% needed on the overall budget.

 

[Blue58]

If you buy G1 Trios or Duos, just make sure they have the Omega upgrade (new tweeter/mid range drivers , internal wiring and CPC crossovers). Omega upgrade was a significant improvement in speed and resolution over my original non Omega Duo.

Non Omega G1 Duos were quite available for 7 to 10k USD a few years back. The Omega upgrade kit for G1 Duos is no longer available from AV. I bought the last kit in 2015 and listened to my upgraded Duo's with additional separate subs for about 3 mths with the upgrade until my Mezzos came in.

I sold my upgraded Omega G1 Duos for $15k US in 2015, and best price I've seen here in US for G1 Omega Duo was $11k years ago during the recession. A good condition G1 Duo Omega coupled with a very separate fast subwoofers to extend below the Duo subwoofer limit of 23Hz is pretty hard to beat.

Yes you can get quite the bargain if you keep looking. In fact I was contemplating moving from G1 with Omega upgrade to G2 Omega purely for the better construction but was told the G1 Omega were better due to AG changing the driver spec. Now I’ll never change to Duo XD or Mezzo XD due to the price increases beyond my reach.

 

[spiritofmusic]

And you really don't need to, Barry.

 

[mallen123]

My understanding was that AG always used the Beyma CP380m compression driver for a tweeter. The photos on AGs website now show the tweeter and it is clearly a Beyma driver. This driver has been around since early 2000s if not earlier...perhaps they used something else in the earliest models?

Morrie -
AG changed the G1 Duo line to Omega sometime around mid 2000 to late 2000s.

The Omega G1 Duo upgrade kit was $9kUSD and had new tweeter and mid range drivers plus new crossover. AG claims to have designed them so maybe they got them custom made from Beyma if that's what you see in their latest pics?

Either way - if someone is buying Duo Omega G1s, I think getting the later Omega model or ones with the Omega upgrade is well worth the extra cost due to the improved crossover and new drivers.

Mark

 

[morricab]

Morrie -
AG changed the G1 Duo line to Omega sometime around mid 2000 to late 2000s.

The Omega G1 Duo upgrade kit was $9kUSD and had new tweeter and mid range drivers plus new crossover. AG claims to have designed them so maybe they got them custom made from Beyma if that's what you see in their latest pics?

Either way - if someone is buying Duo Omega G1s, I think getting the later Omega model or ones with the Omega upgrade is well worth the extra cost due to the improved crossover and new drivers.

Mark

Ok, I admit I don’t know the history of the design that well...I just remember hearing or reading that the original trio used the Beyma CP380m and the current photo on the AG website for the Duo shows clearly a Beyma Mylar diaphragm (I have the Ti equivalent) and a magnet structure like a CP380. There is also a good driver with Nd magnets but the driver structure doesn’t look like what is in the AG photo. Maybe they mod them... and it seems they take the back off and put on their own back chamber.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Guttenberg is very impressed

Hey, I know how Steve feels. When I first met Barry five years ago and went to listen to his Duos (at that time off Audio Aero cdp), I returned home and wanted to throw my Zus out of the window. 5 years on, and the playing field is a bit more level.

 

[marslo]

Nats are excellent space heaters as well. Greta Thunberg would blow a gasket if she knew about our hobby.

Marc I am sure your Zu with Nat is a perfect combination but if you want to try a relatively inexpensive amp with Duo be it G2 Omega or new XD version pls consider Ayon Crossfire III integrated.
I auditioned at home at least 10 different amps ( separates and integrated ) with my former Duo G2 Omega and Duo Mezzo XD and still stick to Crossfire.
At Geoffrey’s in Monaco I heard Audiopax with Duos and still prefer Crossfire.
I am sure there are better SET amps for Duo Mezzo XD but not in the same price range.
Christoph reports Cross heats less than other amps LOL.

 

[mallen123]

Marc I am sure your Zu with Nat is a perfect combination but if you want to try a relatively inexpensive amp with Duo be it G2 Omega or new XD version pls consider Ayon Crossfire III integrated.
I auditioned at home at least 10 different amps ( separates and integrated ) with my former Duo G2 Omega and Duo Mezzo XD and still stick to Crossfire.
At Geoffrey’s in Monaco I heard Audiopax with Duos and still prefer Crossfire.
I am sure there are better SET amps for Duo Mezzo XD but not in the same price range.
Christoph reports Cross heats less than other amps LOL.

Hi Marslo -
Did you try the Crossfire Monoblocks as well? Curious if they would be worth the extra cost over the Stereo Crossfire III.

Also - when you tried the AudioPax at Geoffreys - what model were they - Maggiore 50s or the 88 MK3 monoblocks?

 

[christoph]

Christoph reports Cross 3 heats less than other amps LOL.

Well the Crossfire gets toasty as well after some hours, but less heat in total than my Preamp and Poweramp together, hence the Crossfire 3 is my summer amp
Sorry to repeat myself: What a beautiful system and room you have

 

[marslo]

Hi Marslo -
Did you try the Crossfire Monoblocks as well? Curious if they would be worth the extra cost over the Stereo Crossfire III.

Also - when you tried the AudioPax at Geoffreys - what model were they - Maggiore 50s or the 88 MK3 monoblocks?

Tbh I can’t remember precisely, may be one of our colleagues who visited Geoffrey made some notes.
Regarding Crossfire integrated I have this amp for almost 10 years already, all iterations from I to III
I try to avoid monoblocks as my preference goes to multiple sources and I am able to play vinyl, cds / sacd and files.
If I remember well the CEO of Shunyata - Caelin Gabriel has Cross monos, he is on WBF.

PS Thank your Christoph, and vice versa

 

[moby2004]

Hi all,

For Avantgarde Duo owners, how close/far are your speakers from the front wall ? Is it a bad idea to put them very close ( 20/30cms) ?

Thanks

 

[marslo]

AG’s may be placed close to the wall according to the producer , even in the corner because they are directional.
My Duos have the exit of the horn around 1,5 m from the wall behind, I think it’ s better for the airy presentation and the the sound stage to move them a bit forward.

 

[morricab]

Marc I am sure your Zu with Nat is a perfect combination but if you want to try a relatively inexpensive amp with Duo be it G2 Omega or new XD version pls consider Ayon Crossfire III integrated.
I auditioned at home at least 10 different amps ( separates and integrated ) with my former Duo G2 Omega and Duo Mezzo XD and still stick to Crossfire.
At Geoffrey’s in Monaco I heard Audiopax with Duos and still prefer Crossfire.
I am sure there are better SET amps for Duo Mezzo XD but not in the same price range.
Christoph reports Cross heats less than other amps LOL.

As a former Crossfire III owner I can concur that it is a really good amp once I ditched all the stock input driver and rectifier tubes. Before that it was a bit, dare I say, solid statish. As for price range, do you mean new or used? You can sometimes find one used for about 5k euro, which is a screaming good deal. I think they are around 13k new though and this gets into AC Genus territory (15k) and then the competition is pretty tough.

I was impressed with the power in the bass of Crossfire III on my Odeons and superb transparency. Tone shaped up with tube rolling. Had I not become involved with AC I could imagine staying with the Ayon.