Avantgarde Horn Speakers

[Hear Here]

Nothing else is required if already owning a DAC with USB input and a laptop PC.Anyone with XD-series of speakers would make themselves a favor by downloading REW and buying Umik-1 or similar.
Nothing else is required if already owning a DAC with USB input and a laptop PC.
So far I have reached best results by compensating room modes by DSP and the finetuning by ear, control software is a great tool to do this and difference between corrected and uncorrected sound is huge. Everything of course depends of the room acoustics but most likely there will be benefits than not. However I do not recommend directly copying someone else's settings.

These setting do not exactly match to the measurement result below but they are still close enough to get the idea.

Above measurement was done in stereo mode which is not optimal but equals quite well with the tonality experienced in my practically untreated living room.

https://www.minidsp.com/products/acoustic-measurement/umik-1
https://www.roomeqwizard.com/

Thanks - I think I'll bite the bullet and use REW with the calibrated mic you (and others) have suggested to help with XD calibration. You say "Nothing else is required if already owning a DAC with USB input and a laptop PC.". I have a laptop (probably only Windows 7 32 bit), but my DAC has only one USB socket with User Guide note "Connect to this USB port USB mass storage devices formatted as FAT32, NTFS or Linux ext4. The connected USB device appears as Local Source (USB) from the BluOS app". That mean absolutely nothing to me, but is it likely to help with using REW? I have long USB cables to connect between the Duo XD speakers and the laptop.

I'm told that REW is not the most intuitive software so I'm a little hesitant. Any help or encouragement appreciated! Thanks. Peter

 

[MPS]

I believe NAD M12 which you list has USB input to be used as DAC?

 

[Hear Here]

I have G2 Duos only pre XD versions, so the same as yours Peter, except no Class D amp and no SMPS. Having had 3 pairs of G1 Duos including the last generation just prior to the G2 production, in exactly the same room with the same electronics without doubt the G1 last production has the edge in performance. Plus it has the flexibility of being able to move the horns up and down on the frame for different rooms and locations and listening positions. This makes quite a difference to get a good installation set up. Having said that the newer G2's do look very nice.

Hello Graham - good to hear from you. I thought the G2 Duos used 10" drivers whereas the Duo XD (and earlier Grosso) use 12" ones, but I may well be wrong.

My earlier Duos from about 2006 were just pre-Omega and had identical SUB225s to my original Unos. You may remember I took these Unos to a Heathrow Show to use with Tom Willis's Art Audio amps.

The old Duos are very nice sounding and look better in my view without the side supports. I've had the new XDs for some months now, but I must say I think AG has developed a speaker that is simply too tall. It was developed from the Grosso (Duo with 12" drivers) but the new fancy spikes, base frame and adjustment screws raise the speakers appreciably such that the recommended "you should be able to just see the top panel of the enclosure from your listening chair" is only possible if sitting on a tall chair! Tilting forwards detracts from the appearance in my room as the speakers are placed mid-room. Why these speakers need such a tall cabinet I don't understand, as they could easily have retained the greater depth of their predecessor Duos in order to incorporate the extra volume needed for the bigger bass drivers. You can always increase speaker height but you usually can't reduce it.

The XDs sound better than the old Duos, but by less than I'd hoped, though a proper setting up session using the XD software, prompted by REW will no doubt make a big difference. That's my next project! Peter

 

[Hear Here]

I believe NAD M12 which you list has USB input to be used as DAC?

Thanks. In fact the M12 is in storage as I currently use the M33. However if the M12's USB socket will work, then I'm sure the one in the M33 will too as the User Guide wording is effectively the same.

 

[remdeck]

Here is some help for DIY measurement.
I use REW with the miniDSP UMIK-1 microphone. There will be other ways to measure and I don't know if REW will bring the best results.
The UMIK-1 is cool, as it is USB and comes with a calibration file. As soon as you start REW with UMIK-1 plugged in, it automatically recognises the UMIK and loads the calibration file. This makes it much more easy to work with as with separate mic and USB audio interface.
Start REW:


Press measurement top left. Measure loudspeakers L and R separately. Position the microphone on your listeningposition.
You can calibrate the level to a audiolevel you use for normal listening with "Check levels". Then "Start measuring" (leave everything else like it is)
You will hear a sweep for about 5 seconds.


After that you will see this result after pressing "All SPL"

As you can see, this is very wild, so you have to smooth it out visually by clicking "Controls" (upper right)
To make it more usefull, make "smoothing" 1/6 or 1/12.

Now it looks better.
Now you will tell REW to predict the corrections to more linearity. Press "EQ" on the top of the window.
Then you will see this:

On the right side:
Equalizer: Leave on Generic (other DSPs available)
Target settings, do like shown. Except the "Target Level" (blue line in the upper window) This would normally be the audio level at which you did your measurement. Than the EQ predicts the boosts and cuts for the EQ. As you lower it so far that is is close to the lowest frequencygain dip, the predictions will be only cuts, which is what you want. You don't want to have boosts of frequencies. (in an ideal world!!!!)
You can set is to the measurement level and try around, I've found that it gets to better results lowering the Target Level (found that on youtube somewhere) Only thing is, as the "Target level" is lower, you have to boost the complete level around 10dB input or output.
In "Filter Tasks" use my values as a starting point.
The press "Match response to target"
The "orange" line in the upper window is the "Predicted Frequency Response" after correction.
Then Press "EQ Filter" and you will see the predicted EQ values which you have to manually bring in to the ALL DSP software, then looking like this (dark grey window ist the ALL DSP software):



Make sure to do Low Cut and High Cut according to your loudspeakers. My AA Uno have 190Hz. And make sure to add 10-12dB of gain, which I did in the "Out 1" of the ALL DSP window.
After doing the corrections in the ALL DSP, do a new measurement with REW and than it should look something like this:


Red line is without DSP, blue line is after correction with DSP.
I manually correct it a little bit. Look till around 240Hz, as this is where the Subs of the Avantgarde go and the horns will take over.
You see, I have a slightly falling overall frequency response. When I have the reverb problems done in my room (reverb RT60 of more than 0,5-0,6 seconds between 300Hz and 3 kHz), I hope to get it more in a horizontal line.
But it really looks better now and sounds a lot better too.

This is what the ALL DSP looks like now, after new measurements this morning, after changing to a bigger sofa.


Hope this is helpfull for some!

Regards, Remco

 

[MPS]

REW has a very good help file which explains a lot. Good to read through if uncertain of something.
Anyways measurement files can be shared for analysing. I'm sure fellow members of this AA group are ready to share their expertise with both REW and AA speakers to optimize DSP adjustments. Please note that REW measurements must be done correctly to be of any use.

 

[MPS]

It's good to remember that Avantgarde Acoustic also offers Audio Holography services.
https://www.monoandstereo.com/2017/09/avantgarde-acoustic-audio-holography.html

 

[Bergm@nn]

Hi, new member here. Have recently bought a used pair of AG Uno Fino (the older version with the 2 bass drivers).

Looking for some set up advice to optimise them in my room which is about 16 feet by 13 feet. I have plonked sort of in the corner either side of a 6 feet bay window, about 1.5 feet from the back wall, toed in to cross slightly in front of my listening position which is 12 feet away and 4 feet from the back wall.

The subjective headache now is what to do with the volume and frequency adjustment. At the moment I think I've got the Freq at 5 and volume at 7 but that's just based on a quick twiddle and playing some music.

Is there a more rigorous and less subjective approach that anyne would recommend?

Cheers,
B

 

[Addicted to hifi]

Hi, new member here. Have recently bought a used pair of AG Uno Fino (the older version with the 2 bass drivers).

Looking for some set up advice to optimise them in my room which is about 16 feet by 13 feet. I have plonked sort of in the corner either side of a 6 feet bay window, about 1.5 feet from the back wall, toed in to cross slightly in front of my listening position which is 12 feet away and 4 feet from the back wall.

The subjective headache now is what to do with the volume and frequency adjustment. At the moment I think I've got the Freq at 5 and volume at 7 but that's just based on a quick twiddle and playing some music.

Is there a more rigorous and less subjective approach that anyne would recommend?

Cheers,
B

Welcome to wbf.

 

[Addicted to hifi]

Hi, new member here. Have recently bought a used pair of AG Uno Fino (the older version with the 2 bass drivers).

Looking for some set up advice to optimise them in my room which is about 16 feet by 13 feet. I have plonked sort of in the corner either side of a 6 feet bay window, about 1.5 feet from the back wall, toed in to cross slightly in front of my listening position which is 12 feet away and 4 feet from the back wall.

The subjective headache now is what to do with the volume and frequency adjustment. At the moment I think I've got the Freq at 5 and volume at 7 but that's just based on a quick twiddle and playing some music.

Is there a more rigorous and less subjective approach that anyne would recommend?

Cheers,
B

Set them up the way they sound the best.

 

[Addicted to hifi]

I would like to help but I have never owned these speakers.

 

[MPS]

Hi, new member here. Have recently bought a used pair of AG Uno Fino (the older version with the 2 bass drivers).

Looking for some set up advice to optimise them in my room which is about 16 feet by 13 feet. I have plonked sort of in the corner either side of a 6 feet bay window, about 1.5 feet from the back wall, toed in to cross slightly in front of my listening position which is 12 feet away and 4 feet from the back wall.

The subjective headache now is what to do with the volume and frequency adjustment. At the moment I think I've got the Freq at 5 and volume at 7 but that's just based on a quick twiddle and playing some music.

Is there a more rigorous and less subjective approach that anyne would recommend?

Cheers,
B

Hi and welcome to the forum and horn club as well.

I'm only experienced with XD models so I can't say anything about adjustments in older models. What I can however say is that those adjustments are there for a reason. Every room, every listening environment is acoustically different so there is no one correct setting for those adjustments. I would always start from default settings that the manufacturer recommends and start from there tweaking settings as required. Most likely those default settings as less that optimal so how to find out which adjustments are needed? In my opinion best way to start is to measure room response and room modes in low frequencies. Second best way is to just sit back and listen and adjust and listen. The most satisfying result will come by combining both methods, by measuring the main issues and after adjusting confirming and readjusting by listening. Normally it is required to reduce output at the most troublesome frequencies but as a result the whole low frequency level may sound little bit lacking and some rise to the output level may be required. Older generation AA speakers don't quite have the adjustability of the more recent DSP equipped XD models so you will need to do with what's available. Since we are at WTB forum the definitive solution would be to fix any and all issues by acoustic treatments.

I will include one screenshot of my most resent setting in one channel Duo XD as an example to give some idea of adjustments and end result:

 

[G T Audio]

Hi, new member here. Have recently bought a used pair of AG Uno Fino (the older version with the 2 bass drivers).

Looking for some set up advice to optimise them in my room which is about 16 feet by 13 feet. I have plonked sort of in the corner either side of a 6 feet bay window, about 1.5 feet from the back wall, toed in to cross slightly in front of my listening position which is 12 feet away and 4 feet from the back wall.

The subjective headache now is what to do with the volume and frequency adjustment. At the moment I think I've got the Freq at 5 and volume at 7 but that's just based on a quick twiddle and playing some music.

Is there a more rigorous and less subjective approach that anyne would recommend?

Cheers,
B

Didn't you get a manual from the dealer or previous owner as it will give you guidance on the settings in the manual. If not then try and get one from AG. You might want to try to position them in the straight ahead position or very slightly toed in. I wouldn't toe them in as you have them currently...

 

[Ron Resnick]

Hi, new member here. Have recently bought a used pair of AG Uno Fino (the older version with the 2 bass drivers).

Looking for some set up advice to optimise them in my room which is about 16 feet by 13 feet. I have plonked sort of in the corner either side of a 6 feet bay window, about 1.5 feet from the back wall, toed in to cross slightly in front of my listening position which is 12 feet away and 4 feet from the back wall.

The subjective headache now is what to do with the volume and frequency adjustment. At the moment I think I've got the Freq at 5 and volume at 7 but that's just based on a quick twiddle and playing some music.

Is there a more rigorous and less subjective approach that anyne would recommend?

Cheers,
B

Congratulations on the purchase of those speakers, and welcome to WBF!

 

[MPS]

Didn't you get a manual from the dealer or previous owner as it will give you guidance on the settings in the manual. If not then try and get one from AG. You might want to try to position them in the straight ahead position or very slightly toed in. I wouldn't toe them in as you have them currently...

I have slight toe out on mine but experimenting is worth doing. I would also like to try them directly on the front wall but I have some cabinetry behind them so not possible but like I said, everything depends on the room.

 

[Bergm@nn]

Didn't you get a manual from the dealer or previous owner as it will give you guidance on the settings in the manual. If not then try and get one from AG. You might want to try to position them in the straight ahead position or very slightly toed in. I wouldn't toe them in as you have them currently...

Thanks for replies so far guys.

@GT Audio - yes I have got the original manual. This is where I took the advice from to have the speakers toed in pointing straight at my listening position , so they are about 12 feet apart at 45 deg pointing to my position about 12 feet away in a triangle. The room allows me to have them pushed in away from the corners to be 8 feet apart and pointing straight ahead (90 deg) or slightly toed.

On the settings on the rear panel, I have the LF switch set in the middle to 20 Hz, and the crossover switch set to LOW. I understand at a level that there is a trade off between the bass volume and the horn FREQ crossover. I dialled up the bass VOL until it sounded like it was too thuddy and backed it off (to about 7). Then I crept up the FREQ dial until I thought it sounded okay and left it there for a while to listen (at about 5).

My next steps I think are going to be to play with the speaker position a bit more and have them more straight ahead, and I've downloaded REW and ordered a mic to take some measurements - I'll likley post them here to get some help with how to interpret them and what to tweak etc.

 

[Blue58]

Thanks for replies so far guys.

@GT Audio - yes I have got the original manual. This is where I took the advice from to have the speakers toed in pointing straight at my listening position , so they are about 12 feet apart at 45 deg pointing to my position about 12 feet away in a triangle. The room allows me to have them pushed in away from the corners to be 8 feet apart and pointing straight ahead (90 deg) or slightly toed.

On the settings on the rear panel, I have the LF switch set in the middle to 20 Hz, and the crossover switch set to LOW. I understand at a level that there is a trade off between the bass volume and the horn FREQ crossover. I dialled up the bass VOL until it sounded like it was too thuddy and backed it off (to about 7). Then I crept up the FREQ dial until I thought it sounded okay and left it there for a while to listen (at about 5).

My next steps I think are going to be to play with the speaker position a bit more and have them more straight ahead, and I've downloaded REW and ordered a mic to take some measurements - I'll likley post them here to get some help with how to interpret them and what to tweak etc.

Hi Bergm@nn,

Ive recently gone down the road of learning how to use REW and all I’ve learnt is that it’s great for measuring a room, not so much a speaker, and results don’t necessarily correlate to sound quality perception. As an example I measured a dip at 2khz showing the tweeter is phase inverted. Is this a bad thing? not in my room as I can’t hear it and likely deliberate to reduce a forwardness in that range. I also measured a dip at 152hz, exactly at my crossover point, but it isn’t, as moving my point didn’t reduce the dip. This shows how you can be fooled into thinking there are errors with your speakers when there aren’t, it’s the room. REW is great for anyone requiring adjustment of filters in DSP and does work with home theatre for example.

Now for your Fino speakers, I think your choice of 8ft apart, 12ft back is a great starting point. Have the tweeter fire over your shoulder to cross behind your listening position, or face on as Graham suggested, and work from there, all the while listening for that perfect soundstage. For bass level, that’s up to you. I prefer moderate bass so I increase it until it’s too much for me then back off. Crossover adjusted by ear and I prefer a thicker sound with lower tones to vocals rather than airy. You may prefer different, so it’s your choice not what is right or wrong.

Have fun and you’ll find a happy place soon enough.

cheers
Blue58

 

[marslo]

Thanks for replies so far guys.

@GT Audio - yes I have got the original manual. This is where I took the advice from to have the speakers toed in pointing straight at my listening position , so they are about 12 feet apart at 45 deg pointing to my position about 12 feet away in a triangle. The room allows me to have them pushed in away from the corners to be 8 feet apart and pointing straight ahead (90 deg) or slightly toed.

On the settings on the rear panel, I have the LF switch set in the middle to 20 Hz, and the crossover switch set to LOW. I understand at a level that there is a trade off between the bass volume and the horn FREQ crossover. I dialled up the bass VOL until it sounded like it was too thuddy and backed it off (to about 7). Then I crept up the FREQ dial until I thought it sounded okay and left it there for a while to listen (at about 5).

My next steps I think are going to be to play with the speaker position a bit more and have them more straight ahead, and I've downloaded REW and ordered a mic to take some measurements - I'll likley post them here to get some help with how to interpret them and what to tweak etc.

I do not remeber the exact settings with my former Duo Omega G2, but imho you are going the right way.

I used to change settings a little bit depending on quality of the bass recordings .

 

[MPS]

I think everyone should read and then re-read what Blue58 said.

Just to clear things up, by toe out I actually mean toe in but in a way where the aim of the speakers would cross somewhere 1-2m behind my head. From my listening spot I'm just about to see the middle sidewalls of the speaker cabinets.
I might later post a layout picture of the room, I makes more sense to analyse measurements when there is information of the listening environment. REW is Room Equalizer Wizard so don't expect the measurements tell that much about the speakers, it's all about the room or the interaction of the room and the speakers.

 

[MPS]

I will present following just to show the power of AA XD model's DSP function.

The room layout is as pictured below, please note that it might not be totally accurate in relative dimensions.

There is a practical room simulation tool in REW which I run twice with different width calculations. Simulator is too simplified so that complex room models can't be used.
First simulation with 8.5m as room width.

Second simulation with 6.65m as room width.

It can easily be seen that everything down from 50Hz is boosted pretty much down to 20Hz. Room modes peak at +20dB, this is quite common in buildings with heavy concrete construction, even the windows are with triple glass.
Simulations are not totally accurate but they give a rough idea where and how severe the acoustic issues might be.

Luckily Avantgarde has taken the path to offer the end user to adjust the active low frequency drivers output. With 10 PEQ adjustments and output level as well as high and low pass filters, these speakers, maybe not too easily, but in an available way, can matched to pretty much any room with reasonable results.
So this is where I am now:

Instead of +20dB peaks, there now is a steady controlled rise of 6-7dB mainly below 40Hz. It's important to realise that a totally flat curve is not desirable. In real life listeners expect sort of house curve where the SPL at below 100-200Hz exceeds that of the mid and high frequency range. Like I posted before and as can be seen from the simulations, I only needed to reduce the level at certain frequencies and I still have a healthy LF output (fine tuned by ear). Some ppl may be lucky enough not to need the help of DSP but I do believe there aren't that many.
BTW rest of the frequency response (>200Hz) is heavily affected by even small position changes of the measurement microphone so take those with a grain of salt.