Avantgarde Horn Speakers

Big Dog RJ

Well-Known Member
Feb 3, 2012
840
115
388
Melbourne
Two REL Carbon Special installed, clearly better than s/812

Very nice one on the REL's Marslo.

I've always admired the REL's and we used to use quite a number of their subs back then. Mostly partnered with Paradigm speakers and Maggie's in home theatre config.

Their new special carbon series subs seems to be really top notch. I wonder whether these would be a good match with stats. Similar CLX owner is just about to close on the ML matching subs, I mentioned REL but we were wondering which ones... haven't come across this Carbon special series in Aus as yet. May have to look into it further.

Enjoy those fine tunes!
Cheers, RJ
 
  • Like
Reactions: marslo

caesar

Well-Known Member
May 31, 2010
3,579
295
538
Marslo,
Congrats! Looks incredible. Considering that Poland was a slave, satellite state to the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, times are not so bad these days. I would take 2020 and 2021 over 1980s, anytime, even with Covid.
Enjoy in great health!
 
  • Like
Reactions: marslo

caesar

Well-Known Member
May 31, 2010
3,579
295
538
Great thread, guys! Does anyone have any sense why Avantgarde chose outboard subs. hORNs Symphony line, on the other hand, integrates their sub like Martin Logans do (Neolith, summit, etc.). What are the full tradeoffs? Is it all about the Avantgardes having a higher efficiency (100+), which allows the use of SET amps, vs. the hORNs having a lower efficiency? Any other tradeoffs / considerations in the design choice?

Here's a review: HiFi Pig Review of Symphony 13

The writer claims the newer Avantgardes have more impact, but the Symphony's may have better overall balance.
 

marslo

VIP/Donor
May 2, 2014
781
349
455
Poland
Marslo,
Congrats! Looks incredible. Considering that Poland was a slave, satellite state to the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, times are not so bad these days. I would take 2020 and 2021 over 1980s, anytime, even with Covid.
Enjoy in great health!
Thank you for your kind words.

You are absolutely right about the transition we experienced as a country and myself with my family.

I hardly believe the magnitude of changes in my life. In 83 after having graduted from Poznan Univeresity my first monthly salary was around 30 usd .
We have had coupons to buy food and fourniture for young married people.
In April we will celebrate 40 th anniversary of being together with my first and only wife:), nice opportunity to enjoy life.
 
Last edited:

Big Dog RJ

Well-Known Member
Feb 3, 2012
840
115
388
Melbourne
G'day Marslo,

Just wanted to check on a few things regarding the REL's:
1. How's the speed? Is its driver excursion fast enough to keep up with the horns...
2. Is there any overhang in the LF?
3. How's the start stop acceleration in the drivers?

These three things are very critical to me but more so to the other chap who's considering REL's with his CLX's. That's the main reason why I don't use subs, I just prefer the stats full range. Apart from my musical tastes in mostly jazz and acoustic music, the stats full range are superb.

However, my good mate listens to mostly classical, organ music and large orchestral works, hence I believe subs are better integrated for that added LF field, as long as the integration can be matched carefully.

I mentioned this new Carbon series from REL simply because the material used in their drivers are light as. So in which case I'm thinking the speed, start- stop acceleration should be super fine! Which also I'm thinking that there should not be any overhang whatsoever, compared to the vast majority of subs, they don't integrate too well with panel type speakers.

After mentioning this, is what piked his interest... nearly closing in on the ML balanced force subs, which are designed for the CLX's and similar to those used in the Neoliths but now he has a choice since these carbon REL's seem more suited on paper/specs. I guess we wouldn't really know until we actually did a live audition.

What are your thoughts?

Cheers, RJ
 

marslo

VIP/Donor
May 2, 2014
781
349
455
Poland
G'day Marslo,

Just wanted to check on a few things regarding the REL's:
1. How's the speed? Is its driver excursion fast enough to keep up with the horns...
2. Is there any overhang in the LF?
3. How's the start stop acceleration in the drivers?

These three things are very critical to me but more so to the other chap who's considering REL's with his CLX's. That's the main reason why I don't use subs, I just prefer the stats full range. Apart from my musical tastes in mostly jazz and acoustic music, the stats full range are superb.

However, my good mate listens to mostly classical, organ music and large orchestral works, hence I believe subs are better integrated for that added LF field, as long as the integration can be matched carefully.

I mentioned this new Carbon series from REL simply because the material used in their drivers are light as. So in which case I'm thinking the speed, start- stop acceleration should be super fine! Which also I'm thinking that there should not be any overhang whatsoever, compared to the vast majority of subs, they don't integrate too well with panel type speakers.

After mentioning this, is what piked his interest... nearly closing in on the ML balanced force subs, which are designed for the CLX's and similar to those used in the Neoliths but now he has a choice since these carbon REL's seem more suited on paper/specs. I guess we wouldn't really know until we actually did a live audition.

What are your thoughts?

Cheers, RJ
Hi Big,

The integration in my setup is quite difficult .
I started with subs in the corners behind the speakers as recommended by REL and using High Level connection from speaker binding post in my amp.

The bass was powerful but the time delays with big horn were audible.
Moreover depending on mastering a significant part of my library had overhangs in LF. My best setting was with crossover at 11 o clock and volume around 9 o clock but I was not happy.
Not good. I started to look for other after market subs but yesterday I checked the low level input with rca cables. The signal in this connecton is also processed by the built in so called Perfect Filter. Now the bass was weak- I missed it with previous settings and was obliged to go to maximum of both crossover and volume . My amp has one stereo rca sub output which I use for this connection.
Despite the fact that REL consider this connection to be better only in rare cases in my system with Circle Labs it’ s the only properly working.
Now I am missing a bit of power and saturation on several recordings but generally the integration is much better. I use Octave RTA app on my iphone to observe the acoustic band in real time looking for peaks and overall gain.
The subs are now on line with my main speakers and the speed coherence is much better. I ordered also a simple mic for mobile phones and pads to measure the time delays in my room.
As the signal with rca connection is weak I ordered a pair of RCA Y cables , I was told that it should be better in my setup, to be checked.
Next week I will have Crossfire after the upgrade and will start my hard work again;).
As for the quality of bass reproduction Carbon Special is significantly better than S/812, I would love it to have a simple 5 band DSP like SVS subs have.

The big advantge of REL subs is their perfect finish in piano black , it matters in our living room.
 

Attachments

  • DE3A38AA-7B6E-49D3-97B9-9D82FE0F2D08.jpeg
    DE3A38AA-7B6E-49D3-97B9-9D82FE0F2D08.jpeg
    629.4 KB · Views: 19
Last edited:

Big Dog RJ

Well-Known Member
Feb 3, 2012
840
115
388
Melbourne
Thanks for your reply Marslo.

Yes, I had a feeling those may have been the challenges as you've outlined. I also feel it would be quite difficult to integrate subs as seamless as possible, especially given the fact that AG horns are quite fast indeed. In which case, the Trio's are even faster.

I remember back then, around 2005 June, one our good customers got the AG Trio Omega system, upgraded from his Maggie's which I bought from him, he could never quite integrate the subs properly. Then he received a note from Holger and Mathias in Frankfort, inviting him over for a special audition where they developed some special subs for the Trio's at the time. He returned to cmb with these two huge crates, and each one had those special AG made subs. It was a much better integration but there was still a miss...

Anyway, I guess at this stage we'll just have to wait for the REL carbon series subs to get here so that we can audition in person. Only then can we tell the difference. However, on a more positive note, the only ones that worked near perfectly were ML's balanced force subs so far...
So the purchase is now on hold!

Cheers mate, and enjoy those fine tunes!
The piano black looks stunning! Nice one
Big woof! RJ
 
  • Like
Reactions: marslo

Brucemck2

Member Sponsor
May 10, 2010
313
30
433
Houston area
It’s a PITA to learn, but I have found Room EQ Wizard (REW), along with a high quality calibrated microphone, invaluable when trying to integrate subs and mains. Bass waves just don‘t follow “intuitive” rules in most rooms. REW lets you dial in distances, locations, phase, onboard PEQ, and levels to a pretty high degree - after which “tweaking by ear” gets the last 20%. That worked with Krell LATs, Genesis panels, various Selah and Salk custom boxes, and in my current setup.
 
  • Like
Reactions: marslo

Big Dog RJ

Well-Known Member
Feb 3, 2012
840
115
388
Melbourne
G'day Brucemck2,
That certainly sounds like a good project regarding subs & EQ, well executed, although it was a pita... I've embarked on many of those such pita projects, especially with tube power amplifiers and more so monoblocks. At one point when I nearly closed on the Duo XD's, I had the same monoblocks I'm using now but the non SE version. Later on these amplifiers were upgraded over a period of two years, and only last Friday received them, however the Teflons and those Vishays take quite a while to run-in properly.

If I had the monoblocks perhaps that would have been overkill for the Duo's, I don't know. I was going to use them with one of CJ's integrated amplifiers, the CAV45, which just one another award on Tone I think. Not sure if I would have required subs with this integrated amp but I was under the impression the Duo's built in amplifiers and bass drivers are well capable of that added LF detail.

Anyway, I guess at the end of the day it was all speculation since I didn't go the AG route..., instead closed on stats, and the rest is history!

BTW, what does your system comprise of?
Are you using AG's with subs as well?
Cheers, RJ
 

Brucemck2

Member Sponsor
May 10, 2010
313
30
433
Houston area
BTW, what does your system comprise of?
Are you using AG's with subs as well?
Cheers, RJ
My systems show up in my signature up above and is decidedly off the traditional path for members of this forum. I’ve not owned AGs, but may someday. I’ve got fond memories of Trios playing a Willie Nelson 45 on a Walker table with a Viva amp and Viva preamp in the chain. I used to be a hard core analog guy (Audio Research, VTL, Aesthetix, Basis, Graham, Koetsu, etc. etc.), but have migrated to hard core digital installed in purpose built spaces.
 

Big Dog RJ

Well-Known Member
Feb 3, 2012
840
115
388
Melbourne
That's great to know.
Sometimes I feel really tired trying to keep up with all this stuff and I think retirement will be a good plan in time to come. Then perhaps a simple Divialet with a pair of high grade monitors will just about do it!

Cheers mate, enjoy those fine tunes
RJ
 

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. A place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss existing and new audio products, music servers, music streamers and computer audio, digital to audio convertors (DACS), turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel to reel, speakers, headphones, tube amplifiers and solid state amplification. Founded in 2010 What's Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing