Avantgarde Horn Speakers

[Hear Here]

Hi guys,

I have not read all of the latest posts here, but feel compelled to support the statements by Chop. I have had Trios with four Sub 225s for 20 years. The subs are now for sale (cheap) for pickup only in Minnesota. (Send me a pm if interested).

See my post: https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/set-amp-owners-thread.27070/page-76#post-680279

. . . . which I am going to repeat here because it is even more appropriate:


View attachment 74390

View attachment 74391

Oct 14, 2020
Hi guys,
Referring back to my posts #600 - #609

I have made some changes/IMPROVEMENTS.

Specifically, for discussion today, I have changed my (4) Avantgarde SUB 225 subwoofers. The change is truly phenomenal! Stick with me; this is coming back to my SET amps.

I have had many issues with the AG subs:

I had to recone most of the (8) drivers!
There was a huge thump when I turned them on or off (which, because of this, was seldom).
There was a background hum that additional grounding did not resolve.
They were SLOW relative to the horns.
Even when turned down so that they did not affect the midrange, they still muddied up the sound of the horns.

Despite all this, I lived with them for 20 years because I did not find anything to replace them that I thought would be better, or that I could afford, or that fit in my space, or that worked with my amps, etc.

Hi Don

I recognise the problem of the huge thump on powering up or down SUB225s. My original ones (in 2002 vintage Unos) also suffered this and another a problem that I was convinced was a physical fault with at least one driver - it sounded (occasionally) as if a driver coil was scratching itself inside its magnet. I rotated the drivers 180 degrees in the vain hope that gravity might be the cause and hopefully could also be the cure.

Then I contacted the recently appointed UK distributor who was most helpful in speaking with AG HQ and they came up with cures for both problems that cost me next to nothing. Both were very easily resolved by removing the amps, adding one small resistor to the PCB (to fix the thump) and adjust a small bias pot on the board to fix the scratching sound.

If you think your SUB225 problems may be the same and want to fix them, please send a PM with your email address and I’ll forward AG’s instructions and photos that made the job easy.

Peter

 

[redcars]

Hi Don

I recognise the problem of the huge thump on powering up or down SUB225s. My original ones (in 2002 vintage Unos) also suffered this and another a problem that I was convinced was a physical fault with at least one driver - it sounded (occasionally) as if a driver coil was scratching itself inside its magnet. I rotated the drivers 180 degrees in the vain hope that gravity might be the cause and hopefully could also be the cure.

Then I contacted the recently appointed UK distributor who was most helpful in speaking with AG HQ and they came up with cures for both problems that cost me next to nothing. Both were very easily resolved by removing the amps, adding one small resistor to the PCB (to fix the thump) and adjust a small bias pot on the board to fix the scratching sound.

If you think your SUB225 problems may be the same and want to fix them, please send a PM with your email address and I’ll forward AG’s instructions and photos that made the job easy.

Peter

Hi Peter,
Thanks very much for your offer but Armin Krauss at AG helped me with this in 2014. I did the resistor mod, but it did not change much. I just left them on for the remaining years. No harm done.

Actually, AG has been more than helpful over the years. The comments I made were intended to emphasize the improvements with the RELs.

Thanks,
Don

 

[marslo]

LL21, Redcars is clearly insane enjoying Classical pipe organ music, which is the work of Beelzebub and all his little helpers. My choice in music is very varied but includes dub reggae, some electronic music, Pink Floyd and film soundtracks. There are no issues with deep bass.

The point is though that the RELs integrate seamlessly with the horns and deep bass is only part of the story. If set up properly there is no change of character in the transition from the horns and they aren't noticable on more normal music. I also enjoy classical chamber music and lieder, and the effect of the REL's is to add ambiance and image depth and sheer believability to all music. This is the area in which they far surpass the Avantgarde SUB range that I have heard.

This is what I expect to achieve with REL be it S/ 812 or 212 SX ie fast, well controlled bass and the good integration with Trios mid bass horn.

@redcars
Your experience makes me more confident about my choice , thank you for your thoughts and inspiration.

 

[LL21]

What a beautiful room, Don!

Purely out of curiosity did you ever consider a four pack or a six pack of REL No. 25s?

(LL21 likely is curious about this too!)

Or even stacked 212Xs! 4 x active 12" + 4 x passive 12" per channel! And a much more svelte front profile at 14.5 inches which is literally half as wide as the No 25s.

 

[marslo]

Or even stacked 212Xs! 4 x active 12" + 4 x passive 12" per channel! And a much more svelte front profile at 14.5 inches which is literally half as wide as the No 25s.

Not a bad idea at all

 

[LL21]

Not a bad idea at all

Do you think that the 6-pack No 25s are still the ultimate reference or do you think at some point, the sheer scale of dual stacked 212X subs (ie, a pair of dual stacked 212X would have nearly 2x the cone surface area of the 6-pack REL No 25) would be the primary determining factor because it enables even greater ease, less distortion, greater scale, etc?

 

[marslo]

Well, the reason I do not consider REL 25 as an option is the same as for AG basshorn ie their footprint .
In the case of the placement on line with the main speakers I am looking for the svelte cabinet , 212 SX is only 36 cm wide an this is the main reason to have it if I would need more powerful bass.

 

[christoph]

Well, the reason I do not consider REL 25 as an option is the same as for AG basshorn ie their footprint .
In the case of the placement on line with the main speakers I am looking for the svelte cabinet , 212 SX is only 36 cm width an this is the main reason to have it if I would need more powerful bass.

Did you ever consider GR Research Servo Dipole Subwoofers?

I think those ore the ones that also our member @kodomo uses in his awesome horn system.
He uses two 3-packs, one per side and they replaced/bettered his huge dual tapped horn subwoofers

And the beauty of it is: they are only about 35 cm wide and around 1 m high

 

[marslo]

Did you ever consider GR Research Servo Dipole Subwoofers?

I think those ore the ones that also our member @kodomo uses in his awesome horn system.
He uses two 3-packs, one per side and they replaced/bettered his huge dual tapped horn subwoofers

And the beauty of it is: they are only about 35 cm wide and around 1 m high

No Christoph, I don’ t know this brand.
Checking their website I see only DIY subwoofer kits.

 

[christoph]

No Christoph, I don’ t know this brand.
Checking their website I see only DIY subwoofer kits.

That makes for another nice advantage: they are dirt cheap
Have a cabinetmaker build the "enclosures" for you to your liking to match your interior and be happy.
For that (almost ridiculous) price it is IMHO absolutely worth a try

 

[marslo]

Two REL s/812 installed, the white one will be replaced by second piano black when available - Brexit disturbs deliveries.
Now I have 10 days to decide if I keep them or go rather for 212SX but the first impression is very positive - crossover at around 100 Hz and volume at 9 o’clock give tight, deep and fast bass.
From my listening position I can only hear them

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Nice setup there Marslo.
I don't see the Ayon amplifier anymore... did you change it / upgrade for something else?
Perhaps I missed it.

Anyway, very nice, have a good one.
Enjoy those fine tunes!
RJ

 

[marslo]

Nice setup there Marslo.
I don't see the Ayon amplifier anymore... did you change it / upgrade for something else?
Perhaps I missed it.

Anyway, very nice, have a good one.
Enjoy those fine tunes!
RJ

Crossfire III is being upgraded with 8 Mundorf Silver Gold caps, 16 new resistors installed point to point and electrolytic caps in pre section.
I will keep both ie Circle Labs A100 and Crossfire III.

 

[Anil Kalagatla]

Basic set-up tips:

View attachment 74225

Going back to this super helpful post, do you have similar tips for the Trios? I'm trying to figure out the right height and tilt for the tweeter and the relative distance between the speakers. I assume that the 83% number is applicable to Trios as well, using tweeters as the reference. I currently have the tweeters on the inside, but with some recent changes with furniture, this may get shrink a little (potentially as low as 70%) - is swapping the tweeters to the outside an option at all in that case?

Thanks
Anil


Anil

 

[Addicted to hifi]

My friend has a pair of trios and they are mighty fine horns.

 

[Jim Smith]

Going back to this super helpful post, do you have similar tips for the Trios? I'm trying to figure out the right height and tilt for the tweeter and the relative distance between the speakers. I assume that the 83% number is applicable to Trios as well, using tweeters as the reference. I currently have the tweeters on the inside, but with some recent changes with furniture, this may get shrink a little (potentially as low as 70%) - is swapping the tweeters to the outside an option at all in that case?

Thanks
Anil


Anil

Trios work fine with the tweeter on the outside. If the tonal balance is smooth when set-up on the inside, you may need to toe them in slightly more than they are now, to achieve similar toe-in when on the outside. In this case, it's about keeping the time arrival of the treble smoooth as it blends with the mid-horn. The 83% statement was meant for Unos & Duos.

If you have satisfactory Tone & Presence on the inside, that should be your reference when on the outside. You may have to bring them slightly more close together to achieve it. Also, with the tweeter on the outside, you may have to be careful with first reflections if near a side wall.

 

[Anil Kalagatla]

Thanks Jim. This is super helpful!

 

[marslo]

Two REL Carbon Special installed, clearly better than s/812

 

[Yakamozan]

Anybody in the round that tried the AG Trio´s with Aries Cerat amplification ?

 

[Big Dog RJ]

My friend has a pair of trios and they are mighty fine horns.

Yep, that's Mr P... he had the Maggie 20.7's they were sold off.

His large warehouse like room actually suits the Trio's much better. I also found it to be a better fit, plus room to speakers good match.

Although, I still believe he would have found the 30.7's would have worked really well in his large space but that's if he wanted to go that route.
The amplifiers he's using on the Trio's are definitely overkill.

Anyway, as long as he's enjoying it that's the main thing.
Best, RJ