Avantgarde Horn Speakers

[marslo]

Awesome! Even the first playback sounds so much better on video, not sure what you are feeling in person, and it looks like you haven’t got the subs in yet?

Right Ked, will try to understand what I am missing and will slowly audition various subs.
For the feelings about the sound it is a bit too soon to judge but I like what I hear. The installation was done 2 hours ago, it ‘s a breaking news

 

[EBITDAC]

OK, the thump on my sub amps was cured by the addition of a small resistor to a couple of terminals on the amp board. While you have the amp out, check the bias using a meter while adjusting a small pot on the board. Both very simple jobs - all you need is a multi-meter, a small screwdriver and a soldering iron - plus a couple of 47K resistors from Amazon, Ebay, etc. I bought these - https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07DJZP34N/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 but I could have gone for 1/2 or 1/4 watt ones instead.

But check first that your amp matches the ones in the photos that I'll send to you by email if you send me a message to hearhere@onetel.com. I'll forward the instructions that the UK distributor forward to me from AG in Germany. The bias adjustment cured the slight scratching noise I was getting on one speaker and worth checking anyway as your amps are 18 years old and have probably never been out of their enclosures.

I fitted these rather fetching brackets to the bottom of the sub enclosure -

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They are fixed using 3 small screws but don't use the supplied cones as the rubber tips will come out and damage your floor. Replace them with sturdy spikes or Gaias or similar feet using M8 threads - again a very easy and neat solution, particularly with my speakers after ditching the scaffolding. They give good stability too. Peter

PS - Happy to provide the photos and instructions to any other early AG Uno or Duo owners with similar problems.

Thank you for the links Hear Here. I’ll send an email tonight my time. I’m having more thumping on shut down rather than start up. Perhaps it’s the same problem?

I really like those brackets. They’re the right price too. I’ll try to find a US source for those or something similar.

@Jim Smith thank you very much for the setup graphic. Last night, I adjusted my horns to the suggested position and the clarity and vibrancy of the mids improved dramatically. Unfortunately, it seems like my speakers were never set up properly as I don’t have enough speaker cable to get them the necessary distance apart. I’m going to look a longer set of cables and see what I can do to optimize that part of the setup.

 

[Hear Here]

Trio LE 26 first playback

Those Trios do look great! Congratulations on securing the last pair of that special addition - have I got that right?

I wonder if they may sound even better from an imaging point of view with the speakers switched round so the tweeter horns are just a bit further apart. An easy thing to experiment with before removing the spike protectors. Have fun. Peter

 

[marslo]

Thank you Peter.
I will try one day the tweeters outside but I was told that in my room the inside position is better .

 

[Hear Here]

Thank you for the links Hear Here. I’ll send an email tonight my time. I’m having more thumping on shut down rather than start up. Perhaps it’s the same problem?

I really like those brackets. They’re the right price too. I’ll try to find a US source for those or something similar.

@Jim Smith thank you very much for the setup graphic. Last night, I adjusted my horns to the suggested position and the clarity and vibrancy of the mids improved dramatically. Unfortunately, it seems like my speakers were never set up properly as I don’t have enough speaker cable to get them the necessary distance apart. I’m going to look a longer set of cables and see what I can do to optimize that part of the setup.

The brackets I got made locally and yes, the price was good. I could send drawings if you wanted to get some made for your speakers.

Speaker cable is rather less critical with high efficiency horns I believe. I bought some quite costly Cabledyne Reference silver cables a while back but have recently been switching using a switcher that allows 2 pairs of cables to be connected and a push of a button changes from one to the other. The copper Signal cables are sounding identical, rather to my surprise. No need to spend a fortune on speaker cables for AGs.

 

[HughP3]

@marslo Congrats! I would love to hear Trios one day. They were not at Axpona 2019 but Duo XD were and I really liked.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Nice one Marslo mate!

Those Trio's should be a very nice upgrade from your previous AG's, not that they were too bad at all... Just different I would think. BTW love the open space / plan living room and when dialled in correctly, it works wonders! So much more room to breathe freely.

Enjoy those fine tunes!
Big woofty woof!
RJ

 

[marslo]

What a kind words, thank you Big

 

[Hear Here]

Marslo - Are you planning on using the XD software to adjust for room anomolies or will you get the dealer to do this when the speakers are bedded in and have a couple of hundred hours of use?

I've not run XD on my Duos apart from playing around to see how the many options affect the sound. I have high hopes that this built-in software will be worthwhile, but it appears to need a professional with the Avantgarde measuring kit and a first-class ear and expertise with AGs to achieve best results.

Peter

 

[marslo]

I give up with Avantgarde DSP for now.
I had 13 presets in my Mezzo XD done with the AG software but it was tuned just by ear , without the microphone . The base of those presets done by myself was the preset no 2 memorised by the dealer technician during the installation. Then I tried to improve it and modify to my taste.
Imho in the beginning the dealer staff was not trained enough and then for many reasons several scheduled visits for setting the bass sections using the microphone didn’t take place.

Now the mid bass horn of Trios roll-off at 100 Hz and the REL 812/S subs have the crossover at 125 Hz ,it looks on paper like a perfect match.
Plus REL‘s have a very solid construction and are recommended to be tuned by ear.
So I will start with two s/812 in piano black installed behind Trios in the corners like on the picture.
I will have these REL’s on loan for two weeks soon and if it does not work I will order 231 subs from Avantgarde but with mandatory measurement using microphone. As far as I know the result of such a measurement is then sent to the factory in Germany and Armin Krauss prepare the setting which can be downloaded and stored in DSP memory remotely .

S/812 12 Inch Home Subwoofer | REL Acoustics

S/812 takes REL’s medium chassis concept to reference-like levels of performance and does so with style, beauty and devastating power. It delivers incredible levels of all ‘round performance for both music and film sound, gives customers a taste of what our reference models offer, and does so at...

rel.net

 

[morricab]

I give up with Avantgarde DSP for now.
I had 13 presets in my Mezzo XD done with the AG software but it was tuned just by ear , without the microphone . The base of those presets done by myself was the preset no 2 memorised by the dealer technician during the installation. Then I tried to improve it and modify to my taste.
Imho in the beginning the dealer staff was not trained enough and then for many reasons several scheduled visits for setting the bass sections using the microphone didn’t take place.

Now the mid bass horn of Trios roll-off at 100 Hz and the REL 812/S subs have the crossover at 125 Hz ,it looks on paper like a perfect match.
Plus REL‘s have a very solid construction and are recommended to be tuned by ear.
So I will start with two s/812 in piano black installed behind Trios in the corners like on the picture.
I will have these REL’s on loan for two weeks soon and if it does not work I will order 231 subs from Avantgarde but with mandatory measurement using microphone. As far as I know the result of such a measurement is then sent to the factory in Germany and Armin Krauss prepare the setting which can be downloaded and stored in DSP memory remotely .

S/812 12 Inch Home Subwoofer | REL Acoustics

S/812 takes REL’s medium chassis concept to reference-like levels of performance and does so with style, beauty and devastating power. It delivers incredible levels of all ‘round performance for both music and film sound, gives customers a taste of what our reference models offer, and does so at...

rel.net

Congrats on the new horns! I would not put the subs in the corners far fro the horns. It might give a smoother frequency response but the time delay will not help the perception of dynamics or coherence...unless you time correct with DSP.

 

[wil]

I give up with Avantgarde DSP for now.
I had 13 presets in my Mezzo XD done with the AG software but it was tuned just by ear , without the microphone . The base of those presets done by myself was the preset no 2 memorised by the dealer technician during the installation. Then I tried to improve it and modify to my taste.
Imho in the beginning the dealer staff was not trained enough and then for many reasons several scheduled visits for setting the bass sections using the microphone didn’t take place.

Now the mid bass horn of Trios roll-off at 100 Hz and the REL 812/S subs have the crossover at 125 Hz ,it looks on paper like a perfect match.
Plus REL‘s have a very solid construction and are recommended to be tuned by ear.
So I will start with two s/812 in piano black installed behind Trios in the corners like on the picture.
I will have these REL’s on loan for two weeks soon and if it does not work I will order 231 subs from Avantgarde but with mandatory measurement using microphone. As far as I know the result of such a measurement is then sent to the factory in Germany and Armin Krauss prepare the setting which can be downloaded and stored in DSP memory remotely .

S/812 12 Inch Home Subwoofer | REL Acoustics

S/812 takes REL’s medium chassis concept to reference-like levels of performance and does so with style, beauty and devastating power. It delivers incredible levels of all ‘round performance for both music and film sound, gives customers a taste of what our reference models offer, and does so at...

rel.net

That's a good move to use Armin. He's a very helpful and capable guy!

 

[marslo]

Congrats on the new horns! I would not put the subs in the corners far fro the horns. It might give a smoother frequency response but the time delay will not help the perception of dynamics or coherence...unless you time correct with DSP.

Yes Brad, the placement of two subs will be critical, you are right.
For this reason I will have REL’s on loan first .
Either way the 231 subs from AG are also separate from Trios, the former series didn’t have the built-in DSP so the proper placement was the key.
And thank you

 

[marslo]

That's a good move to use Armin. He's a very helpful and capable guy!

I agree Wil, if it ends with two 231 subs I will insist to have Armin support.

 

[Hear Here]

As far as I know the result of such a measurement is then sent to the factory in Germany and Armin Krauss prepare the setting which can be downloaded and stored in DSP memory remotely .

S/812 12 Inch Home Subwoofer | REL Acoustics

S/812 takes REL’s medium chassis concept to reference-like levels of performance and does so with style, beauty and devastating power. It delivers incredible levels of all ‘round performance for both music and film sound, gives customers a taste of what our reference models offer, and does so at...

rel.net

Thanks. Yes Armin is most helpful and my Duo mods have been discussed with him. I think you're right - a dealer with the measurement kit takes readings in your own room and sends to Armin for a recommended setup. I know from the Dirac measurements that my low bass is rather too high on the frequency graph and then it drops below the flat.

Good luck with the REL subs. The high gloss piano black will match your real piano very well! Peter

 

[christoph]

Yes Brad, the placement of two subs will be critical, you are right.
For this reason I will have REL’s on loan first .
Either way the 231 subs from AG are also separate from Trios, the former series didn’t have the built-in DSP so the proper placement was the key.
And thank you

The DSP in the subs won't help you with the subs placed behind the horn section because it can only delay the subs and you don't the horn section being delayed by/running through the DSP.
If possible in any way, I would place the subs beside the horns or even better slightly closer to the listener than the horns section (and this way avoid the DSP completely for the horns section)

 

[Hear Here]

Thank you for the extensive info Hear Here.

Both horns are set to their mid position. My Duos are from 2002 or 2003. They have the SUB225 but only have speaker level inputs and no phase switch on the sub amp.

One thing I didn't mention that's worth trying with your Duos is to connect the amp to the mid tube contacts (as suggested) then link to the top, then link from the top to the bass, but wire the bass OUT OF PHASE. This was found by many owner as preferable to all sections in phase. Of course the mid and top must be in phase but worth experimenting with the bass.

You say you acquired a bi-wire cable. In that case connect the bi-wires to the mid and top (omitting the link) and link the top to the bass, again experimenting with phase. Mine sound better with the bass out of phase. The test is the volume at your listening position of frequencies around the XO which will be about 140Hz. Choose the phase that offers the higher volume as this means the cones of mid and bass are working together. If the volume is lower the cones are countering one another at those frequencies. Give it a try. Peter

 

[EBITDAC]

One thing I didn't mention that's worth trying with your Duos is to connect the amp to the mid tube contacts (as suggested) then link to the top, then link from the top to the bass, but wire the bass OUT OF PHASE. This was found by many owner as preferable to all sections in phase. Of course the mid and top must be in phase but worth experimenting with the bass.

You say you acquired a bi-wire cable. In that case connect the bi-wires to the mid and top (omitting the link) and link the top to the bass, again experimenting with phase. Mine sound better with the bass out of phase. The test is the volume at your listening position of frequencies around the XO which will be about 140Hz. Choose the phase that offers the higher volume as this means the cones of mid and bass are working together. If the volume is lower the cones are countering one another at those frequencies. Give it a try. Peter

I currently have the biwire going into the tweeter and the mid input with the jumper from the tweeter to the sub wired out of phase. That improved the sound substantially. I’ve also read that running the biwire into the mid and the bass directly, then jumping to tweeter has worked as well.

I think the first order of business is probably to acquire a new set of biwire cables, the Gold Eclipses are incredibly hard to work with and are too short (the former owner used BAT VK60SE monoblocks and ran long cable lengths to the Amps from the pre)

 

[Hear Here]

I currently have the biwire going into the tweeter and the mid input with the jumper from the tweeter to the sub wired out of phase. That improved the sound substantially. I’ve also read that running the biwire into the mid and the bass directly, then jumping to tweeter has worked as well.

I think the first order of business is probably to acquire a new set of biwire cables, the Gold Eclipses are incredibly hard to work with and are too short (the former owner used BAT VK60SE monoblocks and ran long cable lengths to the Amps from the pre)

Well regarding your first point, if you connect the bi-wires to mid and bass, you'd have to very carefully check that the mid and top are in phase. I think you'll find the recommened connections to mid and top should sound better as the bass is "less fussy" than the top.

If you're thinking of buying new bi-wires consider this. If your budget for speaker cables is say £100 (multiply by 10 if you wish - the same argument applies) and you spend that on bi-wire, you are effectively using £50 wire to each section. If you spend that £100 on single-wire, then your speakers will benefit from better quality wire. The craze for bi-wire has rather passed and it's generally better to have superior quality single wiring than lower quality bi-wire, unless your budget is such that you can spend twice as much on bi-wies as you would on single wiring. I hope that makes some sort of sense. Others may disagree but I think most now pass on bi-wiring although you should use equal quality wiring for the links. You may have the original Avantgarde links - they're aren't great, even the optional solid silver ones supplied at the time of your 2002 speakers. Having said that, Avantagarde speakers are less fussy with speaker cables than many systems. You don't need to spend a fortume. Peter

 

[marslo]

The DSP in the subs won't help you with the subs placed behind the horn section because it can only delay the subs and you don't the horn section being delayed by/running through the DSP.
If possible in any way, I would place the subs beside the horns or even better slightly closer to the listener than the horns section (and this way avoid the DSP completely for the horns section)

I am trying to prepare several solutions. First I would place REL s/812 in the corners behind the speakers as shown on the enclosed previously picture.
Today I looked also for dimensions of 212 SX subs which are by 7 cm more narrow than 812 and could be placed on the sides of my hifi rack , exactly as you propose and also REL recommends for stacked subs.

212/SX - 2-Channel Home Audio Subwoofer | REL Acoustics