Avantgarde Horn Speakers

[Batmobil3250]

Congratulations on your Avantgarde purchase. I bought used Duos last year following 17 years with Unos.

I think mine are the same as yours but the Duo 2.2 description is not an AG label but one that Jim Smith, the US distributor at the time used after he asked AG to make small mods for the US market. OK, let’s check. I guess yours have 10” drivers with roll surrounds, not 7” or foam – that’s good. The amp may have only speaker-level inputs or both speaker and line level via XLR. The latter is more recent – post about 2006 – as mine are. The drivers are presumably specified as 8 ohms not the Omega ones at 18 ohms. If that matches your speakers they are the same model as mine.

In my room I set the bass level at 3 small clicks back from vertical, so about 11 o’clock and I also find 140 the best XO setting – all as you have with yours. If you set the XO much higher, there’s an overlap that muddies the sound. Your description may suggest a slight lowering of the XO – try 120 although in theory this may leave a bit of a gap, but still worth trying.

What distance apart are your speakers and how far away is your listening position? Do you have both your horns set at the mid-height position and what feet are you using on what floor surface? There are all important, as is toe-in. Distance from side and rear walls is far less important with AGs than most box speakers and much less so than planars. Your room will be the biggest influence on the sound so experiments with toe-in, height, feet, etc all need careful assessment. In my room (very odd as it’s parabolic in shape 945 sq ft, low ceilings and speakers placed mid-room), I find the distance between speakers is best slightly less than distance from listening position. I find toe-in to almost directly towards me is best although aiming them 1 ft in front of and even 1 ft behind your head may well pay off.

I have solid floors (timber boards on screed on concrete) with carpet over 1/3 of the room area including my listening area but not under the speakers. I don’t like spikes but prefer footers such as IsoAcoustic Gaia Is (although I have IIs at present – a bit overloaded) as they improve bass detail in particular quite significantly and bass volume a little too. I’m told that Symphosium Svelte platforms are good with AGs too.
View attachment 73978
I decided I wanted to get rid of the 3 upright poles as I find them unattractive, so I’ve modified mine so the tubes are now supported by the prongs of an F shaped frame attached to the back to the speakers. All achieved without damaging the Duos and, in my opinion look much better and (with more attention to vibration control) also sound a little better. Drawings available if interested. Good luck with your tuning – don’t rush. Peter

Hello I would like to receive a copy of the drawings. I also have a set of Duo and as you don’t like the pole. I am also looking into building a new base and add proper feet. My email: info@wowfactor.dk best mikael

 

[Batmobil3250]

Well regarding your first point, if you connect the bi-wires to mid and bass, you'd have to very carefully check that the mid and top are in phase. I think you'll find the recommened connections to mid and top should sound better as the bass is "less fussy" than the top.

If you're thinking of buying new bi-wires consider this. If your budget for speaker cables is say £100 (multiply by 10 if you wish - the same argument applies) and you spend that on bi-wire, you are effectively using £50 wire to each section. If you spend that £100 on single-wire, then your speakers will benefit from better quality wire. The craze for bi-wire has rather passed and it's generally better to have superior quality single wiring than lower quality bi-wire, unless your budget is such that you can spend twice as much on bi-wies as you would on single wiring. I hope that makes some sort of sense. Others may disagree but I think most now pass on bi-wiring although you should use equal quality wiring for the links. You may have the original Avantgarde links - they're aren't great, even the optional solid silver ones supplied at the time of your 2002 speakers. Having said that, Avantagarde speakers are less fussy with speaker cables than many systems. You don't need to spend a fortume. Peter

Regarding speaker cables I agree. Avantgarde need very little current. I used some anakonda size cables used on my still lovely Mirage M7Si. Now changing to a set of re-issued Wester Electric 16GA things has improved a lot. The sound is more organic and the drivers blend better. I am now thinking about changing the internal cable and while having them opened I will damp the tubes. I have a set of Duo G1.

 

[G T Audio]

I give up with Avantgarde DSP for now.
I had 13 presets in my Mezzo XD done with the AG software but it was tuned just by ear , without the microphone . The base of those presets done by myself was the preset no 2 memorised by the dealer technician during the installation. Then I tried to improve it and modify to my taste.
Imho in the beginning the dealer staff was not trained enough and then for many reasons several scheduled visits for setting the bass sections using the microphone didn’t take place.

Now the mid bass horn of Trios roll-off at 100 Hz and the REL 812/S subs have the crossover at 125 Hz ,it looks on paper like a perfect match.
Plus REL‘s have a very solid construction and are recommended to be tuned by ear.
So I will start with two s/812 in piano black installed behind Trios in the corners like on the picture.
I will have these REL’s on loan for two weeks soon and if it does not work I will order 231 subs from Avantgarde but with mandatory measurement using microphone. As far as I know the result of such a measurement is then sent to the factory in Germany and Armin Krauss prepare the setting which can be downloaded and stored in DSP memory remotely .

S/812 12 Inch Home Subwoofer | REL Acoustics

S/812 takes REL’s medium chassis concept to reference-like levels of performance and does so with style, beauty and devastating power. It delivers incredible levels of all ‘round performance for both music and film sound, gives customers a taste of what our reference models offer, and does so at...

rel.net

Please be aware that the subs designed and supplied with the AG horns are specifically designed to match the speed of the horns. Other subs like the Rel's were never designed to partner AG horns, therefore you may find them slow and ponderous by comparison. Remember bass is about quality and not quantity. AG did their homework when designing their subs so I would be very surprised if other mainstream manufactors would make something that gave better results than AG.

Also, don't expect DSP in the XD's to sort all bass/room issues. DSP is limited in what it can achieve so it is always best if you have acoustic room problems to address these at source with acoustic room treatment.

 

[marslo]

I am perfectly aware of potential shortcomings of non AG subs.
From the other hand already 231 subs would be a compromise, the only real match would be 2 basshorns but their footprint is not acceptable in our living room.
I had Duo Omega G2 for 6 years and then Duo Mezzo XD for 5 years, I was in Lautertal before acquiring Mezzos . I am not a bass freak, listening mostly to classical and jazz.
I am ready to accept some compromise for the band 20-100 Hz as an adult life is an art of compromise
I decided to get Trio LE 26 for their unique design and workmanship plus the sound from 100 Hz up to ...what I still hear
The process of getting some bass just started with my old Velodyne from second HT system. Crossover set at 100 Hz and I have some bass waiting for a pair of s/812, Duelund 12 GA speaker cables from the amp ( Circle Labs A100) to the sub.

 

[G T Audio]

I am perfectly aware of potential shortcomings of non AG subs.
From the other hand already 231 subs would be a compromise, the only real match would be 2 basshorns but their footprint is not acceptable in our living room.
I had Duo Omega G2 for 6 years and then Duo Mezzo XD for 5 years, I was in Lautertal before acquiring Mezzos . I am not a bass freak, listening mostly to classical and jazz.
I am ready to accept some compromise for the band 20-100 Hz as an adult life is an art of compromise
I decided to get Trio LE 26 for their unique design and workmanship plus the sound from 100 Hz up to ...what I still hear
The process of getting some bass just started with my old Velodyne from second HT system. Crossover set at 100 Hz and I have some bass waiting for a pair of s/812, Duelund 12 GA speaker cables from the amp ( Circle Labs A100) to the sub.

Nothing wrong with Sub 231s. I used a pair of sub 230's with my second pair of Trios. The overall sound was excellent. The secret is fine tuning them. AG speakers are very sensitive to cabling. The Duelund is probably the best value cable to use at present, that is if you don't mind making up the cables. Best results are achieved by getting rid of any plastic or synthetic materials in the cabling...

 

[marslo]

Nothing wrong with Sub 231s. I used a pair of sub 230's with my second pair of Trios. The overall sound was excellent. The secret is fine tuning them. AG speakers are very sensitive to cabling. The Duelund is probably the best value cable to use at present, that is if you don't mind making up the cables. Best results are achieved by getting rid of any plastic or synthetic materials in the cabling...

The visit we payed with my wife in 2015 to AG headquarter was especially to listen to Trios G2 with small subs and compare them to Mezzos G2 before making the decision about the purchase.
I do not know if they were not tuned properly by AG people but the presentation was not convincing and we found Mezzos much more coherent and with better bass.
I listened on several occasions to Trios with smalll subs and I did not like the lack of coherence. Now the guys from Sound Rebels who reviewed Trio LE 26 with 231 subs said that the bass was ok and the tuning by the dealer specialist was good.

But I still do not like the size and the construction of the cabinet , as well as the DSP which goes up to 500 Hz which seems to me excessive for Trios .

On paper the crossover point of REL s/812 looks much more suitable for Trios than 231 subs. Their piano black finish and lower price are another two pros.

As far as cables are concerned I agree with you.

 

[Jim Smith]

The visit we payed with my wife in 2015 to AG headquarter was especially to listen to Trios G2 with small subs and compare them to Mezzos G2 before making the decision about the purchase.
I do not know if they were not tuned properly by AG people but the presentation was not convincing and we found Mezzos much more coherent and with better bass.

I remember well my initial visit to Avantgarde in 1998 when I was invited to be their North American distributor.

By that time I had set up several pairs for clients. In no way did their TRIO demo compare to what I knew that UNOs could do, let alone DUOs or TRIOs. I subsequently signed on in spite of their demo, but with their agreement that they would supply a better woofer than the originals.

And they are great folks. Holger, Mattias, & Armin (who joined them at the factory a couple of years later) were always very good to deal with.

 

[G T Audio]

The visit we payed with my wife in 2015 to AG headquarter was especially to listen to Trios G2 with small subs and compare them to Mezzos G2 before making the decision about the purchase.
I do not know if they were not tuned properly by AG people but the presentation was not convincing and we found Mezzos much more coherent and with better bass.
I listened on several occasions to Trios with smalll subs and I did not like the lack of coherence. Now the guys from Sound Rebels who reviewed Trio LE 26 with 231 subs said that the bass was ok and the tuning by the dealer specialist was good.

But I do not still like the size and the construction of the cabinet , as well as the DSP which goes up to 500 Hz which seems to me excessive for Trios .

On paper the crossover point of REL s/812 looks much more suitable for Trios than 231 subs. Their piano black finish and lower price are another two pros.

As far as cables are concerned I agree with you.

There should have been a big difference between the Trio and the Mezzo. The Mezzos are Duos with a very short horn bass. Realistically the short horn flare does very little so really there are just big bass subwoofers. I seem to recall the bass drivers in the sub 230s are the same as in the Mezzos but the Mezzo cabinet is huge (a 4 man lift which I remember very well). Obviously the Mezzo's require more from the bass and the Trios less so: Duos/Mezzo <170Hz and Trios <100Hz. In practice you will probably set the bass to <170Hz and the Trios >100Hz respectively.

I suggest if you want to improve the bass, you go down the Living Voice route and use big enclosures like the JBL 4645C with 18" drivers and power those separately from a amp like the one from BK Electronics.

There will be a big difference between the factory subs and that REL because the REL was not designed to work with efficient horn speakers like the AGs. It was designed to work with conventional box speakers so there will be an efficiency miss match. OK, you can overcome some of the efficiency by the gain in the REL amp but to get bass out of a small sub (REL) you need to EQ the bass and that is not good for bass quality and speed.

 

[Hear Here]

The visit we payed with my wife in 2015 to AG headquarter was especially to listen to Trios G2 with small subs and compare them to Mezzos G2 before making the decision about the purchase.
I do not know if they were not tuned properly by AG people but the presentation was not convincing and we found Mezzos much more coherent and with better bass.
I listened on several occasions to Trios with smalll subs and I did not like the lack of coherence. Now the guys from Sound Rebels who reviewed Trio LE 26 with 231 subs said that the bass was ok and the tuning by the dealer specialist was good.

But I do not still like the size and the construction of the cabinet , as well as the DSP which goes up to 500 Hz which seems to me excessive for Trios .

On paper the crossover point of REL s/812 looks much more suitable for Trios than 231 subs. Their piano black finish and lower price are another two pros.

As far as cables are concerned I agree with you.

Hello Marslo and Graham (good to hear from you Graham).

As I understand XD, it is DSP software that influences only the amplifier that's built into Avantgardes current range of subs. Therefore the Trio on its own has no XD capability, despite its XD label.

The software will adjust only the frequencies handled by the chosen sub, so 190 or less according to the model it's working with - much lower with Trio. So, without an AG sub, you have no XD facility. With 231 or other AG sub, you can adjust all sorts of settings within the amplifier including the type of crossover - Butterworth, Bessel, etc. This offers huge scope for fine tuning of the low frequencies that are handled by the sub.

Someone please correct me if I’ve totally misunderstood XD.

Graham - I'm rather surprised at your suggestion that AGs are fussy about cable type. I have 2 very different cables (in length and construction) connected to my Duo XDs and a switcher that allows immediate AB comparison. Granted the 12" or so link between the amp and the switcher is the same in both trials, but I challenge you to hear any difference in sound. My view is that AGs are unusually unfussy as to cable - as long as it's good quality. I'm still in Portsmouth - you've very welcome to visit and bring down a pair of your Convergence monos if you still do them!

Peter

 

[Chop]

I can only speak from personal experience.... FWIW, I have used a pair of REL212SE's with Avantgarde Trios for a couple of years and found them to be an absolutely seamless match. I know the sound of Trio's with SUB225's and SUB 230's: Although the 230's are better than the 225's I found they are no match for the REL's, which are faster and go down significantly further.
An American friend of mine on this forum has done exactly the same thing with exactly the same results. IMO, its well worth exploring REL's with Trios.

 

[Soundelite]

Experimenting different amp for the Duo XD. Has anyone tried them with VAC tube amp?

 

[redcars]

I can only speak from personal experience.... FWIW, I have used a pair of REL212SE's with Avantgarde Trios for a couple of years and found them to be an absolutely seamless match. I know the sound of Trio's with SUB225's and SUB 230's: Although the 230's are better than the 225's I found they are no match for the REL's, which are faster and go down significantly further.
An American friend of mine on this forum has done exactly the same thing with exactly the same results. IMO, its well worth exploring REL's with Trios.

Hi guys,

I have not read all of the latest posts here, but feel compelled to support the statements by Chop. I have had Trios with four Sub 225s for 20 years. The subs are now for sale (cheap) for pickup only in Minnesota. (Send me a pm if interested).

See my post: https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/set-amp-owners-thread.27070/page-76#post-680279

. . . . which I am going to repeat here because it is even more appropriate:






Oct 14, 2020
Hi guys,
Referring back to my posts #600 - #609

I have made some changes/IMPROVEMENTS.

Specifically, for discussion today, I have changed my (4) Avantgarde SUB 225 subwoofers. The change is truly phenomenal! Stick with me; this is coming back to my SET amps.

I have had many issues with the AG subs:

I had to recone most of the (8) drivers!
There was a huge thump when I turned them on or off (which, because of this, was seldom).
There was a background hum that additional grounding did not resolve.
They were SLOW relative to the horns.
Even when turned down so that they did not affect the midrange, they still muddied up the sound of the horns.

Despite all this, I lived with them for 20 years because I did not find anything to replace them that I thought would be better, or that I could afford, or that fit in my space, or that worked with my amps, etc.

I stumbled on a thread in a blog I seldom read: https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/avantgarde-trio-set-up-revisited-question.729213/

I contacted the thread starter in England, and one thing led to another.

I ordered a pair of (the newest) REL 212SX, and a pair of SR subwoofer cables designed for the RELs.

https://rel.net/shop/powered-subwoofers/serie-s/212-sx/

https://www.synergisticresearch.com/cables/atmosphere/subwoofer/atmosphere-relspec-subwoofer/


The two RELs are each powered by 1000W amplifiers and connect to the amp speaker terminals just as the AV subs did. That makes a total of about 2008+ watts!! Obviously, most of it is unused.

All of this was mixed with high anticipation, new friendships, and frustration.


I bought my Wavelength Mercury Ag amps when I bought my Trios. I still love them 20 years later. The Wavelength Mercury was rated at 4W @ using AVVT20SL tubes. Since these tubes are NLA, I switched to the Emission Labs 20B. This turned out to be a big improvement as the AVVT was more tubey sounding and the 20B is very dynamic and realistic in my system. I suspect that they also boosted the 4W output a bit.


I wrote to REL:

If: The amps are 4W+ full power and 15-45KHz -3dB
And: The Trios are 109 Db+ efficient, and the amps are still VERY quiet.
And: The horns are rated for 3W-200W input.
And: The horns and the Avantgarde subs will play really loud now without noticeable distortion, and I avoid driving them any harder.
And: The amplifier designer/manufacturer says there should be no problem here.
And: My friend has a very similar system with the same speakers and two REL 212SE
Then: Is there any problem with driving two REL 212SX subs to the same volume levels that I currently have?


Every person I spoke with at REL thought this should be fine, except for one influential individual who stated they would not work with my amps but refused to talk with me.

I ordered the subs anyway!

After a couple of break-in stumbles, the RELs are FANTASTIC!

There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG with my Wavelength amps driving these!

Relative to the AG subs:
They are much easier place and tune.
They integrate with the horns seamlessly.
They are fast, dynamic, powerful and natural sounding.
There is a new quietness around the musical notes coming from the horns that has never been there before.
The soundstage is larger, but naturally recorded voices and instruments are not.
Likely much more that I have yet to discover!

I am a happy camper!


PS: I notice that some of the posters on this thread seem to be negative relative to REL. I can only suggest that they push “reset” and listen to the 212SX

Best,
Don

 

[Chop]

...what Redcars said...

 

[LL21]

Very very good feedback on the RELs! Thanks for taking the time to provide your insights. Just curious...what kinds of deep bass-related music do you listen? Hans Zimmer soundtracks, deep house electronic by any chance?

 

[redcars]

Very very good feedback on the RELs! Thanks for taking the time to provide your insights. Just curious...what kinds of deep bass-related music do you listen? Hans Zimmer soundtracks, deep house electronic by any chance?

Analogue classical pipe organs!

 

[redcars]

I use a multi-laser device from Kralk Audio to accurately toe in the speakers to the listening spot - and then a laser measuring device to ensure the distances are the same. It works but I will admit to giving up when it's within a centimetre or so ;-)

--Jatinder

I use the little green ball over the listening chair and eyeball alignment. The room, listening position and speakers are laser located.



Camera location is off slightly; otherwise everything is perfect!
Don

 

[LL21]

Analogue classical pipe organs!

Excellent! Good to know. Was just listening to Bach Organ - Richter just now!

 

[Chop]

LL21, Redcars is clearly insane enjoying Classical pipe organ music, which is the work of Beelzebub and all his little helpers. My choice in music is very varied but includes dub reggae, some electronic music, Pink Floyd and film soundtracks. There are no issues with deep bass.

The point is though that the RELs integrate seamlessly with the horns and deep bass is only part of the story. If set up properly there is no change of character in the transition from the horns and they aren't noticable on more normal music. I also enjoy classical chamber music and lieder, and the effect of the REL's is to add ambiance and image depth and sheer believability to all music. This is the area in which they far surpass the Avantgarde SUB range that I have heard.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I use the little green ball over the listening chair and eyeball alignment. The room, listening position and speakers are laser located.

View attachment 74392

Camera location is off slightly; otherwise everything is perfect!
Don

What a beautiful room, Don!

Purely out of curiosity did you ever consider a four pack or a six pack of REL No. 25s?

(LL21 likely is curious about this too!)

 

[redcars]

What a beautiful room, Don!

Purely out of curiosity did you ever consider a four pack or a six pack of Rel No. 25s?

(LL21 likely is curious about this too!)

Thanks Ron
I had to borrow from my bride to get the SX212s.

LL21, Redcars is clearly insane enjoying Classical pipe organ music, which is the work of Beelzebub and all his little helpers. My choice in music is very varied but includes dub reggae, some electronic music, Pink Floyd and film soundtracks. There are no issues with deep bass.

I'm proud that Beelzebub is the deepest bass there is!