Avantgarde Horn Speakers

Big Dog RJ

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Two REL Carbon Special installed, clearly better than s/812

Very nice one on the REL's Marslo.

I've always admired the REL's and we used to use quite a number of their subs back then. Mostly partnered with Paradigm speakers and Maggie's in home theatre config.

Their new special carbon series subs seems to be really top notch. I wonder whether these would be a good match with stats. Similar CLX owner is just about to close on the ML matching subs, I mentioned REL but we were wondering which ones... haven't come across this Carbon special series in Aus as yet. May have to look into it further.

Enjoy those fine tunes!
Cheers, RJ
 
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caesar

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Marslo,
Congrats! Looks incredible. Considering that Poland was a slave, satellite state to the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, times are not so bad these days. I would take 2020 and 2021 over 1980s, anytime, even with Covid.
Enjoy in great health!
 
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caesar

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Great thread, guys! Does anyone have any sense why Avantgarde chose outboard subs. hORNs Symphony line, on the other hand, integrates their sub like Martin Logans do (Neolith, summit, etc.). What are the full tradeoffs? Is it all about the Avantgardes having a higher efficiency (100+), which allows the use of SET amps, vs. the hORNs having a lower efficiency? Any other tradeoffs / considerations in the design choice?

Here's a review: HiFi Pig Review of Symphony 13

The writer claims the newer Avantgardes have more impact, but the Symphony's may have better overall balance.
 

marslo

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Marslo,
Congrats! Looks incredible. Considering that Poland was a slave, satellite state to the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, times are not so bad these days. I would take 2020 and 2021 over 1980s, anytime, even with Covid.
Enjoy in great health!
Thank you for your kind words.

You are absolutely right about the transition we experienced as a country and myself with my family.

I hardly believe the magnitude of changes in my life. In 83 after having graduted from Poznan Univeresity my first monthly salary was around 30 usd .
We have had coupons to buy food and fourniture for young married people.
In April we will celebrate 40 th anniversary of being together with my first and only wife:), nice opportunity to enjoy life.
 
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Big Dog RJ

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G'day Marslo,

Just wanted to check on a few things regarding the REL's:
1. How's the speed? Is its driver excursion fast enough to keep up with the horns...
2. Is there any overhang in the LF?
3. How's the start stop acceleration in the drivers?

These three things are very critical to me but more so to the other chap who's considering REL's with his CLX's. That's the main reason why I don't use subs, I just prefer the stats full range. Apart from my musical tastes in mostly jazz and acoustic music, the stats full range are superb.

However, my good mate listens to mostly classical, organ music and large orchestral works, hence I believe subs are better integrated for that added LF field, as long as the integration can be matched carefully.

I mentioned this new Carbon series from REL simply because the material used in their drivers are light as. So in which case I'm thinking the speed, start- stop acceleration should be super fine! Which also I'm thinking that there should not be any overhang whatsoever, compared to the vast majority of subs, they don't integrate too well with panel type speakers.

After mentioning this, is what piked his interest... nearly closing in on the ML balanced force subs, which are designed for the CLX's and similar to those used in the Neoliths but now he has a choice since these carbon REL's seem more suited on paper/specs. I guess we wouldn't really know until we actually did a live audition.

What are your thoughts?

Cheers, RJ
 

marslo

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G'day Marslo,

Just wanted to check on a few things regarding the REL's:
1. How's the speed? Is its driver excursion fast enough to keep up with the horns...
2. Is there any overhang in the LF?
3. How's the start stop acceleration in the drivers?

These three things are very critical to me but more so to the other chap who's considering REL's with his CLX's. That's the main reason why I don't use subs, I just prefer the stats full range. Apart from my musical tastes in mostly jazz and acoustic music, the stats full range are superb.

However, my good mate listens to mostly classical, organ music and large orchestral works, hence I believe subs are better integrated for that added LF field, as long as the integration can be matched carefully.

I mentioned this new Carbon series from REL simply because the material used in their drivers are light as. So in which case I'm thinking the speed, start- stop acceleration should be super fine! Which also I'm thinking that there should not be any overhang whatsoever, compared to the vast majority of subs, they don't integrate too well with panel type speakers.

After mentioning this, is what piked his interest... nearly closing in on the ML balanced force subs, which are designed for the CLX's and similar to those used in the Neoliths but now he has a choice since these carbon REL's seem more suited on paper/specs. I guess we wouldn't really know until we actually did a live audition.

What are your thoughts?

Cheers, RJ
Hi Big,

The integration in my setup is quite difficult .
I started with subs in the corners behind the speakers as recommended by REL and using High Level connection from speaker binding post in my amp.

The bass was powerful but the time delays with big horn were audible.
Moreover depending on mastering a significant part of my library had overhangs in LF. My best setting was with crossover at 11 o clock and volume around 9 o clock but I was not happy.
Not good. I started to look for other after market subs but yesterday I checked the low level input with rca cables. The signal in this connecton is also processed by the built in so called Perfect Filter. Now the bass was weak- I missed it with previous settings and was obliged to go to maximum of both crossover and volume . My amp has one stereo rca sub output which I use for this connection.
Despite the fact that REL consider this connection to be better only in rare cases in my system with Circle Labs it’ s the only properly working.
Now I am missing a bit of power and saturation on several recordings but generally the integration is much better. I use Octave RTA app on my iphone to observe the acoustic band in real time looking for peaks and overall gain.
The subs are now on line with my main speakers and the speed coherence is much better. I ordered also a simple mic for mobile phones and pads to measure the time delays in my room.
As the signal with rca connection is weak I ordered a pair of RCA Y cables , I was told that it should be better in my setup, to be checked.
Next week I will have Crossfire after the upgrade and will start my hard work again;).
As for the quality of bass reproduction Carbon Special is significantly better than S/812, I would love it to have a simple 5 band DSP like SVS subs have.

The big advantge of REL subs is their perfect finish in piano black , it matters in our living room.
 

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Big Dog RJ

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Thanks for your reply Marslo.

Yes, I had a feeling those may have been the challenges as you've outlined. I also feel it would be quite difficult to integrate subs as seamless as possible, especially given the fact that AG horns are quite fast indeed. In which case, the Trio's are even faster.

I remember back then, around 2005 June, one our good customers got the AG Trio Omega system, upgraded from his Maggie's which I bought from him, he could never quite integrate the subs properly. Then he received a note from Holger and Mathias in Frankfort, inviting him over for a special audition where they developed some special subs for the Trio's at the time. He returned to cmb with these two huge crates, and each one had those special AG made subs. It was a much better integration but there was still a miss...

Anyway, I guess at this stage we'll just have to wait for the REL carbon series subs to get here so that we can audition in person. Only then can we tell the difference. However, on a more positive note, the only ones that worked near perfectly were ML's balanced force subs so far...
So the purchase is now on hold!

Cheers mate, and enjoy those fine tunes!
The piano black looks stunning! Nice one
Big woof! RJ
 
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Brucemck2

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It’s a PITA to learn, but I have found Room EQ Wizard (REW), along with a high quality calibrated microphone, invaluable when trying to integrate subs and mains. Bass waves just don‘t follow “intuitive” rules in most rooms. REW lets you dial in distances, locations, phase, onboard PEQ, and levels to a pretty high degree - after which “tweaking by ear” gets the last 20%. That worked with Krell LATs, Genesis panels, various Selah and Salk custom boxes, and in my current setup.
 
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Big Dog RJ

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G'day Brucemck2,
That certainly sounds like a good project regarding subs & EQ, well executed, although it was a pita... I've embarked on many of those such pita projects, especially with tube power amplifiers and more so monoblocks. At one point when I nearly closed on the Duo XD's, I had the same monoblocks I'm using now but the non SE version. Later on these amplifiers were upgraded over a period of two years, and only last Friday received them, however the Teflons and those Vishays take quite a while to run-in properly.

If I had the monoblocks perhaps that would have been overkill for the Duo's, I don't know. I was going to use them with one of CJ's integrated amplifiers, the CAV45, which just one another award on Tone I think. Not sure if I would have required subs with this integrated amp but I was under the impression the Duo's built in amplifiers and bass drivers are well capable of that added LF detail.

Anyway, I guess at the end of the day it was all speculation since I didn't go the AG route..., instead closed on stats, and the rest is history!

BTW, what does your system comprise of?
Are you using AG's with subs as well?
Cheers, RJ
 

Brucemck2

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BTW, what does your system comprise of?
Are you using AG's with subs as well?
Cheers, RJ
My systems show up in my signature up above and is decidedly off the traditional path for members of this forum. I’ve not owned AGs, but may someday. I’ve got fond memories of Trios playing a Willie Nelson 45 on a Walker table with a Viva amp and Viva preamp in the chain. I used to be a hard core analog guy (Audio Research, VTL, Aesthetix, Basis, Graham, Koetsu, etc. etc.), but have migrated to hard core digital installed in purpose built spaces.
 

Big Dog RJ

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That's great to know.
Sometimes I feel really tired trying to keep up with all this stuff and I think retirement will be a good plan in time to come. Then perhaps a simple Divialet with a pair of high grade monitors will just about do it!

Cheers mate, enjoy those fine tunes
RJ
 

remdeck

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Apr 10, 2018
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After living with my Avantgarde Acoustic Uno (build 2004) from 2015, I wanted to convert my Uno with Sub225ctrl to the more modern XD technology. This is now done and works fine.
The conversion is quite easy.
I used an aluminum plate as a base, which is screwed onto the existing heat sink. I didn't want to chew the original. If you want the control display, which is also built into the XD, you should perhaps discard the Sub225 coolingfins and insert a new aluminum plate. I don't need the display because after setting the DSP I don't need it anymore. Nevertheless, if I should do it again, I would discard the cooling fins and work with a large, suitable aluminum plate. The power amplifiers do not get warmer than 39 degrees Celcius even at high volumes.
Removing the old circuit board is very easy. Unfortunately the toroidal transformer is glewed on and did not go down even with heat.
I was only able to solve this with a saw.
I exchanged the XLR input socket for a network socket from Neutrik.

00 Sub225CTRL Innenleben.jpg
Sub225 Ctrl from the inside

01 Module 1.jpg 03 DSP und Input.jpg
Complete chassis ALLDSP XM12 left and Lundahl Input Right

02 Module 2.jpg 04 Vor dem Einbau.jpg 05 Fertig eingebaut.jpg
Pascal s-pro2

The amplifier modules are the Pascal s-pro2. These have 2x 500W. They already have the power supply on the board. So put mains voltage on and connect loudspeakers.

The ALLDSP is used by Avantgarde as the DSP. I use the ALLDSP XM12. This has a network connection, analog in and 2 stereo speaker outputs. Simply use the appropriate ribbon cable between the ALLDSP and s-pro2.
All the important signals are then included: audio in and auto standby, so that the amplifier goes off after a certain time. This can be set in the ALLDSP software if you are logged in as administrator.
Since the subs are fed with loudspeaker signals, you need a transformer with adaptation of the loudspeaker signal to line signal, which is used as the input signal for the XM12. I still had Lundahl LL1540 lying around.
My setup for the LS> Line Input Avantgarde:

Input High-Low.png

R1 and R2 2 or 3 watts.
The inputsection is copied from the original as Matthias Ruff did it. You could also build a normal voltage divider 10/1, but I suspect Matthias has thought of this somewhat unusual circuit for reasons. The GND bridge is there when it should hum; open in my setup.

I bought the modules from a PA company in Germany, which builds PA speakers with these modules. The modules are not easy to get hold of as a consumer, but asking a company which uses them, they will sell you some. If someone needs a contact, I can provide it per mail.
The ribbon cable must then be ordered in the appropriate length.

In terms of price, you have to think around € 900 plus metalwork.
Seen in this way, I think the price jump there was to the XD series is justified because the AA display is included and the modules are completely built into an aluminum housing. I haven't done that (yet). Doesn't seem to be necessary either.

In terms of sound, I'm really happy with it. It sounds a lot better without a DSP; clearer in the bass range, more powerful and really tight. The DSP can of course correct problems. Measured with Room EQ Wizard and Umik-1 and the EQ settings are manually transferred to the ALLDSP. I am now on the third attempt. Now I like it really well. For me, this conversion was definitely worth it.

Here are some pictures of the frequency response with s-Pro2 without switched on DSP in red and with DSP in blue. Not shown is my acoustic problem that between 300Hz and 3kHz; the reverberation time is too high = 0.7-0.8 seconds) Therefore the frequency response is not yet as it should be. I still have to do something acoustically.

Screenshot 2021-06-06 12.16.19.png
REW frequencyresponse on listening position

Screenshot 2021-06-10 10.22.33.png
EQs at the moment. When the acoustics are better, I will reduce the EQ somewhat.

Maybe someone will build this also :cool:

Regards, Remco
 

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Hear Here

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After living with my Avantgarde Acoustic Uno (build 2004) from 2015, I wanted to convert my Uno with Sub225ctrl to the more modern XD technology. This is now done and works fine.
The conversion is quite easy.
I used an aluminum plate as a base, which is screwed onto the existing heat sink. I didn't want to chew the original. If you want the control display, which is also built into the XD, you should perhaps discard the Sub225 coolingfins and insert a new aluminum plate. I don't need the display because after setting the DSP I don't need it anymore. Nevertheless, if I should do it again, I would discard the cooling fins and work with a large, suitable aluminum plate. The power amplifiers do not get warmer than 39 degrees Celcius even at high volumes.
Removing the old circuit board is very easy. Unfortunately the toroidal transformer is glewed on and did not go down even with heat.
I was only able to solve this with a saw.
I exchanged the XLR input socket for a network socket from Neutrik.

View attachment 79247
Sub225 Ctrl from the inside

View attachment 79248 View attachment 79249
Complete chassis ALLDSP XM12 left and Lundahl Input Right

View attachment 79250 View attachment 79251 View attachment 79252
Pascal s-pro2

The amplifier modules are the Pascal s-pro2. These have 2x 500W. They already have the power supply on the board. So put mains voltage on and connect loudspeakers.

The ALLDSP is used by Avantgarde as the DSP. I use the ALLDSP XM12. This has a network connection, analog in and 2 stereo speaker outputs. Simply use the appropriate ribbon cable between the ALLDSP and s-pro2.
All the important signals are then included: audio in and auto standby, so that the amplifier goes off after a certain time. This can be set in the ALLDSP software if you are logged in as administrator.
Since the subs are fed with loudspeaker signals, you need a transformer with adaptation of the loudspeaker signal to line signal, which is used as the input signal for the XM12. I still had Lundahl LL1540 lying around.
My setup for the LS> Line Input Avantgarde:


Regards, Remco
Hello Remco

That's a pretty ambitious upgrade - well done. I hope you hear an improvement compared with the original Uno amplifier.

I bought my Unos new in 2002 and these had the same subs as yours - SUB225 CTRL. I experienced a couple of minor problems after 15 years or so - there was a disconcerting thump on powering up and the bass drivers developed an occasional slight scratching sound on certain notes. I thought the coils may be coming in contact with the magnet housing, but a chat with the very helpful AG people revealed a minor mod that cured both problems. A couple of small resistors added to the circuit board and a re-adjustment of the pots inside did the job. Apart from that, my Unos always performed flawlessly for 17 years and sounded great.

However I was never happy with their looks - in particular the "scaffolding" that supports the 2 horn tubes. I designed an alternative support system and did away with these side supports. If interested, I illustrated the changes on another forum here - https://www.audioasylum.com/forums/hug/messages/18/183480.html.

Although this new F frame was designed for my Unos, by the time I decided to go for it, I had acquired 2006 Duos. The frame can in fact be used for any Unos or Duos that have the 2 separate horn tubes. If interested, here's a sketch of the frame but I could forward better drawings and a shopping list of the very few items needed to complete the modification.

The finished speakers looks so much slimmer and more elegant with no damage to the original enclosure (apart from 2 small holes through the back panel and a few small screws into the bottom panel) and no loss in sound quality – in fact the isolation between the sub enclosure and horns is significantly improved, so probably improved sound quality. Peter
 

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remdeck

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Peter,

We talked about your construction some time ago. I really think it is nice looking and without a doubt better sounding.
I'll stay with the original for now, as there are some more important things to do. Improving room acoustics, better interconnects, improving the digital streaming part.

Did you end up happy with the duo XD?
 

Hear Here

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Feb 14, 2020
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Peter,

We talked about your construction some time ago. I really think it is nice looking and without a doubt better sounding.
I'll stay with the original for now, as there are some more important things to do. Improving room acoustics, better interconnects, improving the digital streaming part.

Did you end up happy with the duo XD?
Yes, the 2006 Duos (just pre-Omega) are a step up from the Unos though I'm of the opinion that the Uno is the best value speaker from Avantgarde. My most recent upgrade (after an unsuccessful short venture into electrostatics) is Duo XD,

I'm not entirely convinced on how big an improvement this is over the earlier Duos. I've not played around with the DSP much because sadly AG don't provide a calibrated mic with integrated software that would measure and adjust the bass curve as other DSP systems do - RoomPerfect, Dirac Live, MARS, Anthem, etc. I need to measure the response but I don't have the wherewithal (or skills probably) to do so effectively. How do you measure your speakers’ response and do you re-measure after using the XD software to see how flat a curve the new settings have achieved?

Also the Duo XD has not responded quite so well to my scaffold-ditching scheme as the older design did. It's better in my view but there are issues!
 

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G T Audio

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Yes, the 2006 Duos (just pre-Omega) are a step up from the Unos though I'm of the opinion that the Uno is the best value speaker from Avantgarde. My most recent upgrade (after an unsuccessful short venture into electrostatics) is Duo XD,

I'm not entirely convinced on how big an improvement this is over the earlier Duos. I've not played around with the DSP much because sadly AG don't provide a calibrated mic with integrated software that would measure and adjust the bass curve as other DSP systems do - RoomPerfect, Dirac Live, MARS, Anthem, etc. I need to measure the response but I don't have the wherewithal (or skills probably) to do so effectively. How do you measure your speakers’ response and do you re-measure after using the XD software to see how flat a curve the new settings have achieved?

Also the Duo XD has not responded quite so well to my scaffold-ditching scheme as the older design did. It's better in my view but there are issues!
I have G2 Duos only pre XD versions, so the same as yours Peter, except no Class D amp and no SMPS. Having had 3 pairs of G1 Duos including the last generation just prior to the G2 production, in exactly the same room with the same electronics without doubt the G1 last production has the edge in performance. Plus it has the flexibility of being able to move the horns up and down on the frame for different rooms and locations and listening positions. This makes quite a difference to get a good installation set up. Having said that the newer G2's do look very nice.
 

MPS

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Anyone with XD-series of speakers would make themselves a favor by downloading REW and buying Umik-1 or similar.
Nothing else is required if already owning a DAC with USB input and a laptop PC.
So far I have reached best results by compensating room modes by DSP and the finetuning by ear, control software is a great tool to do this and difference between corrected and uncorrected sound is huge. Everything of course depends of the room acoustics but most likely there will be benefits than not. However I do not recommend directly copying someone else's settings.

These setting do not exactly match to the measurement result below but they are still close enough to get the idea.

Above measurement was done in stereo mode which is not optimal but equals quite well with the tonality experienced in my practically untreated living room.

https://www.minidsp.com/products/acoustic-measurement/umik-1
https://www.roomeqwizard.com/
 

MPS

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Jun 20, 2016
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I don't want to flood this thread with REW but here's couple of hints that may be useful:

Sub 100Hz can be corrected with DSP quite effectively by principal "if it looks good, it sounds good" at least as a starting point. I find the waterfall to be very useful to control and manage LF issues (here can still be seen some mode @36Hz):


For room acoustics RT60 is more useful than frequency response. My preference is relatively flat and uniform RT60 300-200ms above ~200Hz slight rise in RT60 in LF is still good as long as it's relatively well behaved:


Please note that my measurements are not ideal, they are here only as example.
 

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