Bayz Audio Counterpoint 2.0 >>>>Rhapsody.Audio

[infinitely baffled]

Have you considered MBL?

Indeed i have.
I think i was put off by a review where they were found wanting in the mid bass?
Crucial zone for me, that.

 

[infinitely baffled]

Find yourself a pair of Martin Logan Statement E2's, they will do electronica and audiophile approved music without breaking a sweat. I used to host after hours parties with Miami techno DJ's and club owner's attending, they where literally blown away by the sound. Large electrostatic panel, 16 7,5 inch open baffle mid-bass drivers, and 16 12 inch sub-bass drivers.

Are you in a position to compare them to Apogees?

 

[infinitely baffled]

Find yourself a pair of Martin Logan Statement E2's, they will do electronica and audiophile approved music without breaking a sweat. I used to host after hours parties with Miami techno DJ's and club owner's attending, they where literally blown away by the sound. Large electrostatic panel, 16 7,5 inch open baffle mid-bass drivers, and 16 12 inch sub-bass drivers.

<downloads brochure >

 

[infinitely baffled]

I lived with Trios/4BH's for 8 years, 20 years ago. I used to listen to K/D all the time, at 95db levels. Sounded amazing. I get it.

But I don't see the Alsyvox or Bayz being the right match for this type of playback. BUT if you integrate either of the speakers with a crossover and the four V18's then like I said, who knows. It might sound amazing.

4 panel Caravaggios would be interesting to hear. You should take a trip to visit Emile at Taiko and hear his four panel Caravaggios. Emile plays some heavy bass oriented tracks at high SPLs. He actually would be a good person to discuss this with.

Thank you

 

[Lagonda]

Are you in a position to compare them to Apogees?

I never heard the larger Apogees, and i sold the Statements years ago, i only use the sub-towers with my MBL's these days.

 

[MRJAZZ]

You refer to '100db electronica' as if it is something out of the ordinary.
In the UK it's considered mainstream. The track i linked to is a widely recognised classic, but the combined response to it here was telling. As if the genre were a grubby object not worthy of consideration. Certainly not worthy of being played on the best systems.
That's raised my hackles.

(Btw i said 95db with 100db peaks. Morphing this to 100db feels unhelpful, as if you were trying to make a point. I don't run continuously at that, but sometimes nothing else will do. Like when i open my patio doors to let the music out to play in my amphitheatre )

My home was chosen because of it's remoteness, and as i remodelled it i took benefit of the croft- type bungalow design, complete with massive rubble walls nestled against a hill, to build a really inert structure.. From my arrival it was redesigned to handle massive quantities of sub bass energy, from half spaced floor timbers to internal aperture double glazing and sound proofed internal doors. The listening room has a concrete floor, with glass wall behind the speakers, so it is a 'difficult' environmental that gives no help to the speakers. This is another reason to specify a system capable of sustained high spl's, as in my experience dipoles can struggle in this room. I was forever replacing drive units on my Nolas. The Focals manage the room effortlessly. But i also have better amplification now.

However i miss the dipole - omni sound.

What has changed is that now i have a dialled-in subwoofer installation. I don't have to drive quite so hard to get the ultra low frequency weight and explosive dynamics i enjoy from the main speakers alone. So i am determined my next speakers will be dipoles or omnis.
I was looking forward to considering ehich of the three, Diesis, Bayz or Alsyvox would best suit my needs- my money was on the Bayz tbh- but the response felt insulting. My music is primitive. Why would someone listening to that want a state of the art system?

Unfortunately not Dipole, however these will get the “Job” done.....easily,...and sound very open and spacious with effortless dynamics. And the
“Comb Filtering Effects“ will be minimized with some distance from the speakers
(11 feet minimum). With some simple crossover mod’s (better caps), and physically “damping” the midrange and tweeter horn enclosures the sound will be noticeably elevated.
They are stacked KHorns (Cornwall 4’s...108 dB efficiency)
Cheers...

 

[audioblazer]

Indeed i have.
I think i was put off by a review where they were found wanting in the mid bass?
Crucial zone for me, that.

An audiophile friend flew from indo to audition various speakers in Malaysia esp comparing Marten Supreme 2 & MBL 101 x-treme. He ended up buying MBL for his huge room. The bass of MBL is really balls shaking , wall rattling loud !
Since u own Focal Stella, have u consider Focal Grande Evo… the bass performance makes Stella sound like Mickey Mouse

 

[Zeotrope]

German Physiks: probably the most similar speaker to the Bayz in terms of function. Has anyone compared both?

The Bayz are definitely on my short list, and definitely warrant an audition. I’m not loving the 2kHz crossover point though. That’s right in the middle of the ear’s most sensitive hearing range. Sort of goes against speaker design 101 to crossover in the 2-5k range. I don‘t care how ”seamless” it sounds, they are two very different drivers, with a 1st order x-over (hence, a lot of overlap).
The GP by comparison use one driver from 200Hz to 24KHz.

 

[Emperyan]

I own the Bayz Courante and have auditioned the German Physiks HRS-120-D (extended bass vs. regular HRS-120 - then became the HRS-130) some years ago with the same amp, but not in the same room. The audition room of the German Physiks had way more room behind the speakers to the wall than in my living room with the Courante and was overall wider. Stereo triangle is very wide in my room and was narrower with the GP.
Both are great speakers and while they had some qualities in common, I still found them quite different - at least in these setups.

The German Physiks had more depth in the stage and all musicians and voices were placed well behind the speakers. I found this very realistic sounding with orchestral pieces or anything recorded live with two mics in a large hall. But with other music, especially studio pieces, it sounded too detached and uninvolving for my taste. I was missing the intimacy of voices and the directness of some instruments.
With the Courante in my setup, the sound is more enveloping, more intimate and more direct than the GP were. In comparison to GP and also MBL, the Bayz is a little bit unique as it seems to "load" the room with sound while at the same time showing some qualities of regular direct-firing speakers. It´s hard to explain and must be experienced.

The GP could be very dynamic with rock music. They grooved pretty well, but I had a constant tendency to ramp up the volume because I was still looking for something - some kind of impact that was missing. But even at pretty high volumes, the sound stayed extremely clean and it never showed any annoying high frequencies. I can enjoy the same tracks on the Bayz at lower volumes without missing anything. From my memory, the GP might have had a slight edge at groovieness here - but it was a while ago so I could be wrong on this point.
With large orchestral pieces, the GP was stunning - until a large brass section kicked in. With large brass, I was definitely missing bass impact on the GP. Maybe a strong solid state amp might have performed better here than my Octave V80 (SE mod and with SuperBlackBox) tube amp. But when I mentioned this later to some people in German forums, they told me that for great bass performance from Germany Physiks you need to look at the larger PQS models.

Overall in comparison, I would say the Bayz Courante are the more versatile speakers. If you are very much into acoustic instruments, live Jazz or string setups etc., the GP could be amazing for you. But with the Courante I have the feeling they can do it all for me. Every different kind of music is displayed in it´s own unique style and very distinct from others.

But in order not to be unfair to the German Physiks, you have to keep in mind that the HRS-120/130 is at a way lower price point than the Courante and I should have compared it to the PQS-302 or at least the Borderland instead.

Also keep in mind that you need way more firepower on amplification for the German Physiks (and especially the MBL). The 80 watts of tube amplification from my Octave are more than enough for the Courantes and this gives me a lot of flexibility with tubes and class A amps on the Bayz without breaking the bank. I guess GP also work best with high powered solid states. Look at their own newer amps - they are behemoths (also in price).

Just my impressions. Hopefully it helps.

P.S.: In terms of crossover.... there are a lot of things about the Bayz that are puzzling me. I keep asking me "how on earth could this work out?". But for some reason only Zoltan knows, it does work out - in a very coherent way. When comparing the Bayz to MBL and the GP HRS, I find the Courante more coherent. With the smaller MBL you notice the gap between the omni part and the bass drivers. With the MBL 101 you notice that it´s a lot of different drivers crossed together and you notice the bass ports. With the GP HRS you notice that the bass is a very differnt beast from the DDD driver and that it´s downfiring. With the Courante, the bass ports caused modal problems in my room (see my review in this thread), but there is no transition gap to be noticed.

 

[Zeotrope]

Excellent comparison @Emperyan!
Also, while subjective, the aesthetics of the GP drops massively when they get into their side placed woofers (e.g., the PQS-200 and higher). That defeats the purpose of the tall slender design, if you then have a traditional looking cabinet with woofers.

 

[Emperyan]

Well, aesthetics are indeed subjective. I also don´t like the looks of the GP speakers. Even the HRS and Borderland look like overly wide pencils to me ;-) Everything from MBL has somewhat of an oldschool baroque appeal to me. Though I have to admit that I like the large melon of the 101 as it emits some kind of Jules Verne vibe.
But to my eyes, the Bayz are way up and beyond all GP and MBL in terms of aesthetics. Though they seem to polarize. Since I have them in my house, I have heared anything from "pieces of modern art" to "is this some weird coffee machine?". Some commented that they would never ever put them in their rooms. Well.... to each his own.

There´s one thing I wonder about with these omni speaker designs, and maybe Zoltan can comment on this one.
Designs like the German Physiks HRS/Borderland or MBL 101 seem like true 360 degree emission to me. While the larger GP (PQS upwards), the MBL extreme and the Bayz all have a housing/cabinet behind the omni drivers which itself reflects the sound at the back. So in my logic, they would not be true 360 degree anymore but have some kind of a gap in the round pattern at the back and some early reflections from their own cabinet. But all top models have it, so I wonder if this is in any way detrimental to the whole concept but has to be accepted for higher goals - or if it really doesn´t matter at all. Any thoughts on this?

 

[Zeotrope]

I think you must be correct, @Emperyan. The true 360 dispersion is for the midrange and up.
In terms of aesthetics, for a mixed use room (think: family room or great room in a cottage), only the Bayz will actually look good, in my view. Having a massive tower in a big box is only a look a male enthusiast will love!
I’m generally not a fan of having all the components up front between the speakers- although I know I’m in the minority. If I were building a dedicated room I would have the components in the front but behind a wall, so that all the listeners see is the speakers.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I own the Bayz Courante and have auditioned the German Physiks HRS-120-D (extended bass vs. regular HRS-120 - then became the HRS-130) some years ago with the same amp, but not in the same room. The audition room of the German Physiks had way more room behind the speakers to the wall than in my living room with the Courante and was overall wider. Stereo triangle is very wide in my room and was narrower with the GP.
Both are great speakers and while they had some qualities in common, I still found them quite different - at least in these setups.

The German Physiks had more depth in the stage and all musicians and voices were placed well behind the speakers. I found this very realistic sounding with orchestral pieces or anything recorded live with two mics in a large hall. But with other music, especially studio pieces, it sounded too detached and uninvolving for my taste. I was missing the intimacy of voices and the directness of some instruments.
With the Courante in my setup, the sound is more enveloping, more intimate and more direct than the GP were. In comparison to GP and also MBL, the Bayz is a little bit unique as it seems to "load" the room with sound while at the same time showing some qualities of regular direct-firing speakers. It´s hard to explain and must be experienced.

The GP could be very dynamic with rock music. They grooved pretty well, but I had a constant tendency to ramp up the volume because I was still looking for something - some kind of impact that was missing. But even at pretty high volumes, the sound stayed extremely clean and it never showed any annoying high frequencies. I can enjoy the same tracks on the Bayz at lower volumes without missing anything. From my memory, the GP might have had a slight edge at groovieness here - but it was a while ago so I could be wrong on this point.
With large orchestral pieces, the GP was stunning - until a large brass section kicked in. With large brass, I was definitely missing bass impact on the GP. Maybe a strong solid state amp might have performed better here than my Octave V80 (SE mod and with SuperBlackBox) tube amp. But when I mentioned this later to some people in German forums, they told me that for great bass performance from Germany Physiks you need to look at the larger PQS models.

Overall in comparison, I would say the Bayz Courante are the more versatile speakers. If you are very much into acoustic instruments, live Jazz or string setups etc., the GP could be amazing for you. But with the Courante I have the feeling they can do it all for me. Every different kind of music is displayed in it´s own unique style and very distinct from others.

But in order not to be unfair to the German Physiks, you have to keep in mind that the HRS-120/130 is at a way lower price point than the Courante and I should have compared it to the PQS-302 or at least the Borderland instead.

Also keep in mind that you need way more firepower on amplification for the German Physiks (and especially the MBL). The 80 watts of tube amplification from my Octave are more than enough for the Courantes and this gives me a lot of flexibility with tubes and class A amps on the Bayz without breaking the bank. I guess GP also work best with high powered solid states. Look at their own newer amps - they are behemoths (also in price).

Just my impressions. Hopefully it helps.

P.S.: In terms of crossover.... there are a lot of things about the Bayz that are puzzling me. I keep asking me "how on earth could this work out?". But for some reason only Zoltan knows, it does work out - in a very coherent way. When comparing the Bayz to MBL and the GP HRS, I find the Courante more coherent. With the smaller MBL you notice the gap between the omni part and the bass drivers. With the MBL 101 you notice that it´s a lot of different drivers crossed together and you notice the bass ports. With the GP HRS you notice that the bass is a very differnt beast from the DDD driver and that it´s downfiring. With the Courante, the bass ports caused modal problems in my room (see my review in this thread), but there is no transition gap to be noticed.

Thank you very much for this very interesting and thoughtful report! You are the only person I know who has heard Bayz and German Physiks and MBL 101E Mk. II!

 

[Ron Resnick]

I own the Bayz Courante and have auditioned the German Physiks HRS-120-D (extended bass vs. regular HRS-120 - then became the HRS-130) some years ago with the same amp, but not in the same room. The audition room of the German Physiks had way more room behind the speakers to the wall than in my living room with the Courante and was overall wider. Stereo triangle is very wide in my room and was narrower with the GP.
Both are great speakers and while they had some qualities in common, I still found them quite different - at least in these setups.

The German Physiks had more depth in the stage and all musicians and voices were placed well behind the speakers. I found this very realistic sounding with orchestral pieces or anything recorded live with two mics in a large hall. But with other music, especially studio pieces, it sounded too detached and uninvolving for my taste. I was missing the intimacy of voices and the directness of some instruments.
With the Courante in my setup, the sound is more enveloping, more intimate and more direct than the GP were. In comparison to GP and also MBL, the Bayz is a little bit unique as it seems to "load" the room with sound while at the same time showing some qualities of regular direct-firing speakers. It´s hard to explain and must be experienced.

The GP could be very dynamic with rock music. They grooved pretty well, but I had a constant tendency to ramp up the volume because I was still looking for something - some kind of impact that was missing. But even at pretty high volumes, the sound stayed extremely clean and it never showed any annoying high frequencies. I can enjoy the same tracks on the Bayz at lower volumes without missing anything. From my memory, the GP might have had a slight edge at groovieness here - but it was a while ago so I could be wrong on this point.
With large orchestral pieces, the GP was stunning - until a large brass section kicked in. With large brass, I was definitely missing bass impact on the GP. Maybe a strong solid state amp might have performed better here than my Octave V80 (SE mod and with SuperBlackBox) tube amp. But when I mentioned this later to some people in German forums, they told me that for great bass performance from Germany Physiks you need to look at the larger PQS models.

Overall in comparison, I would say the Bayz Courante are the more versatile speakers. If you are very much into acoustic instruments, live Jazz or string setups etc., the GP could be amazing for you. But with the Courante I have the feeling they can do it all for me. Every different kind of music is displayed in it´s own unique style and very distinct from others.

But in order not to be unfair to the German Physiks, you have to keep in mind that the HRS-120/130 is at a way lower price point than the Courante and I should have compared it to the PQS-302 or at least the Borderland instead.

Also keep in mind that you need way more firepower on amplification for the German Physiks (and especially the MBL). The 80 watts of tube amplification from my Octave are more than enough for the Courantes and this gives me a lot of flexibility with tubes and class A amps on the Bayz without breaking the bank. I guess GP also work best with high powered solid states. Look at their own newer amps - they are behemoths (also in price).

Just my impressions. Hopefully it helps.

P.S.: In terms of crossover.... there are a lot of things about the Bayz that are puzzling me. I keep asking me "how on earth could this work out?". But for some reason only Zoltan knows, it does work out - in a very coherent way. When comparing the Bayz to MBL and the GP HRS, I find the Courante more coherent. With the smaller MBL you notice the gap between the omni part and the bass drivers. With the MBL 101 you notice that it´s a lot of different drivers crossed together and you notice the bass ports. With the GP HRS you notice that the bass is a very differnt beast from the DDD driver and that it´s downfiring. With the Courante, the bass ports caused modal problems in my room (see my review in this thread), but there is no transition gap to be noticed.

Thank you very much for this very interesting report! You are the only person I know who has heard Bayz and German Physiks and MBL 101E!

 

[Ron Resnick]

i sold the Statements years ago, i only use the sub-towers with my MBL's these days.

Forgive me for not remembering, but did you ever give us your detailed thoughts on why you sold the Statement ESL/mid-bass towers and prefer the MBL 101E Mk. II?

 

[Lagonda]

Forgive me for not remembering, but did you ever give us your detailed thoughts on why you sold the Statement ESL/mid-bass towers and prefer the MBL 101E Mk. II?

I sold a complete set of Statements when i moved back to Europe, i did not have the room for them at the time. The second set of sub-towers where a later addition to my MBL's. For some music and for movies i preferred the Statements, they where somewhat larger than life and trow a spectacular sound stage. The MBL combo has a more correct sound stage and better treble resolution, with the caveat that i used Krell with the Statements, and that the MBL amplification i use now is far superior. I would have loved to hear 9011 amps on ML Statements.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I sold a complete set of Statements when i moved back to Europe, i did not have the room for them at the time. The second set of sub-towers where a later addition to my MBL's. For some music and for movies i preferred the Statements, they where somewhat larger than life and trow a spectacular sound stage. The MBL combo has a more correct sound stage and better treble resolution, with the caveat that i used Krell with the Statements, and that the MBL amplification i use now is far superior. I would have loved to hear 9011 amps on ML Statements.

Thank you!

 

[Rhapsody]

I've had the Counterpoints in 4 different rooms between my previous location and my new place. This is BY FAR the best sound I have been able to squeeze out of the CP's. A very reflective room. Now I see that each other room that I had set up the CP's in were too dampened. Quite amazing sounding with the VAC 170iQ 85 Watt integrated.

 

[Emperyan]

Pretty small room for the large CPs. Wouldn´t the Courante be suitable enough? Do the CP give you any advantage vs. Courante in this smaller room?

 

[Rhapsody]

Yes it’s only 14 feet wide. The Cunterpoint or a totally different experience than the Courante.

Sure the Courante would be fine in this room unless you heard the Counterpoint.

I just happen to be used to large scale systems so it’s my preference.