Bayz Audio Counterpoint 2.0 >>>>Rhapsody.Audio

[musicfirst1]

Thank you! I think Bob will be excellent host of you, if the pandemic is over.

Also, I am in the Greater Toronto area. If you are in Canada and closer to us than NYC after the border reopens, I would be glad to host listeners too.
We hope to have Counterpoints in the coming month or two as well.

 

[heebrog]

There are two very important differences when it comes to how speakers work. Direction of driving force and mass of membrane. At BRS (Bay Radial Speaker), the direction of motion and radiation coincide, the diaphragm being an exterior lightweight thin film with a surface area of 50-100 at Counterpoint, hundreds times that of conventional dome speakers. Due to the principle of its operation, there is no bracking mode. The BRS is a 90-94dB, high-efficiency, high-bandwidth (800Hz-50kHz -3dB) twisted-pulse, highly attenuated tweeter.

In MBL, the driving force and the radiation direction are perpendicular to each other and use a large mass of membrane, so much greater driving force and displacement are required to produce sound, which has several disadvantages. Extreme bad efficiency, narrow bandwidth and poor pulse transmission with poor damping compared to my expectations.

Hi Zolton,

Can you please explain how the woofer system works.
Are they run "full range" or is there a low-pass filter?
1000Hz is still reasonably directional so mounting them off-axis like that would mean a significant drop-off in output.
Does the woofer behave as a dipole as well?

Thanks in advance.

G

 

[Zoltan Bay]

Hi heebrog,

The woofers in two vented box are in parallel with a low pass filter. Their combination results in an omni output in their frequency band when combined in a full range system and arranged in a very specific geometry.

As an amateur pianist and music lover, I have enjoyed hundreds of live performances of jazz, classical, vocalist, etc. As a consequence, Bayz Audio's objective was to build a playback system that closest exemplifies a real performance, one that puts the listener in the same room as the musicians. This is where the audio industry has completely failed: they build very good loudspeakers but they fail at reproducing a real event. To reproduce a real event, Bayz Audio started with a clean sheet of paper and chose an omni configuration rejecting monopoles and dipoles because the latter two cannot emulate a real three-dimensional, in phase music.

Untold hours were spent voicing the Courante and the Counterpoint to achieve a lifelike performance. As evidenced by the many awards and passionate feedback, apparently the reviewers and music lovers have rediscovered music has it was intended: lifelike. I encourage you to listen to a pair and decide for yourself; you are likely to experience and enjoy music like never before.

 

[infinitely baffled]

Zoltan i wonder if you have any thoughts on the realms beneath 25hz?

 

[Bayz-Audio]

Zoltan i wonder if you have any thoughts on the realms beneath 25hz?

It is in the pipeline but first priority is L/C/R speakers. Dedicated L/C and Center. We have sub ideas but not yet finalized.
Any inputs welcome. We agree for surround 'rumble' we talk sub 25Hz performance. Dual 12" as small model and dual minimum 15" as bigger might be it but as said not yet fixed...... dual 18" and dual 21" could also be made but making a product line is always a balance with the right ones first and not over-shoot...... Sub designs will be BAYZ DESIGN design ,-)

 

[infinitely baffled]

Thats fantastic news.
My input would be a request to remember many of us use subwoofers only for two channel music

 

[infinitely baffled]

Ok, you talked me into it
Flat response to 18hz, -3db @ 15hz. Active. Modular. Stackable, designed to be linked in stereo stacks, as musicfirst has done with his RELs and i have with my Velodynes.
The top preference would be a version of the same configuration as the main speakers, if not stackable then perhaps scaled up and always stereo. It's a myth we can't detect directionality beneath 20 hertz, so the subs need to be alongside the main speakers

 

[infinitely baffled]

In your experience did you find the front back position of the stacks mattered WRT the front baffle of the mains?

You know i think i missed this....my apologies.
Yes, 100%.
I pay close attention when others say subs should be ahead or behind the mains.
My experience was I started with them the same distance from the listening position as the main speakers, and then crept them back until the front baffle of sub is about two inches further from lp than the front baffle of main speakers are, on the same arc, ten inches apart from the mains.
Any closer and the mains can't breathe like they should.
The most important principle is site your mains where they need to be, then the subs go alongside, fine tune by ear.
Don't let the subwoofer setup software dictate where the subs should go. The software will locate the point in the room where the sub works best. Counterintuitively, this isnt where you want them, unless you want to be selling them on again pronto cos they give you headache every time you play music even on level '1'
As Mark Seaton said elsewhere, the room cannot be in service to the subs.
Their job is not to tread on the toes of the main speakers, but to supplement and enhance them, and reinforce the deepest register. If you have them operating above 40hertz and it's not a party and you're not listening to dub reggae, sack your main speakers

Forgive the ramble, but hard won experience and all that

 

[heebrog]

You know i think i missed this....my apologies.

My experience was I started with them the same distance from the listening position as the main speakers, and then crept them back until the front baffle of sub is about two inches further from lp than the front baffle of main speakers are, on the same arc, ten inches apart from the mains.
Any closer and the mains can't breathe like they should.
The most important principle is site your mains where they need to be, then the subs go alongside, fine tune by ear.

I've read that the electronic crossover on most subs create a slight delay in the signal so the subs should be closer than the mains to compensate.
This is to try and achieve ideal impulse response.
Whether this is important/audible or not is debatable but the physics makes sense.

G

 

[infinitely baffled]

I've read that the electronic crossover on most subs create a slight delay in the signal so the subs should be closer than the mains to compensate.
This is to try and achieve ideal impulse response.
Whether this is important/audible or not is debatable but the physics makes sense.

G

Some urban radio stations employ a filter that adds ever such a slight delay to the bass, which can trick the ear into thinking it's deeper.

I find having them just that tiny bit behind adds weight to the bass, and cleans up the image.
But as above, this is firmly in the realm of psychoacoustics as opposed to physics

 

[musicfirst1]

You know i think i missed this....my apologies.
Yes, 100%.
I pay close attention when others say subs should be ahead or behind the mains.
My experience was I started with them the same distance from the listening position as the main speakers, and then crept them back until the front baffle of sub is about two inches further from lp than the front baffle of main speakers are, on the same arc, ten inches apart from the mains.
Any closer and the mains can't breathe like they should.
The most important principle is site your mains where they need to be, then the subs go alongside, fine tune by ear.
Don't let the subwoofer setup software dictate where the subs should go. The software will locate the point in the room where the sub works best. Counterintuitively, this isnt where you want them, unless you want to be selling them on again pronto cos they give you headache every time you play music even on level '1'
As Mark Seaton said elsewhere, the room cannot be in service to the subs.
Their job is not to tread on the toes of the main speakers, but to supplement and enhance them, and reinforce the deepest register. If you have them operating above 40hertz and it's not a party and you're not listening to dub reggae, sack your main speakers

Forgive the ramble, but hard won experience and all that

So far, I have been a believer in subs being more or less in the plane of the main speakers + an inch or two WRT the listening position, but I am always open to other ideas. I think the concept of subs in the plane of the mains is a good one, but I am concerned that my 2x3 high '6 pack' of Rel subs may compromise the uncanny wall to wall to wall imaging of the Bayz speakers if they are adjacent to them. Only time and experimentation will determine which will work best for me; either in the plain of the mains or at the strongest L&R room modes behind the mains.
Stay Tuned.

 

[Beachman]

The implementation of subwoofers is very complex. It involves crossover point and slope, phase, room dimensions, room absorption, stiffness room walls, and the rise time of the sub. The subwoofer's motor is an electrical circuit that must be charged from "zero" and then accelerate a mass; this takes time. By moving the sub behond the mains, it may be mitigate the slow rise time which could be on the order of several milliseconds or more.

Bayz Audio is currently working on several subwoofer designs. The problem is designing a custom driver with a rise time anywhere close to our BRS which is lightning quick: the BRS goes out past 50 kHz. We were very successful with the same same challenge of designing the Courante's and Counterpoint's woofers which are among the quickest on the market. The same challenge exist for the subwoofer but is much more difficult. We are looking at ingenous and innovative solutions. If the subs rise time is too slow, it will diminish the lifelike experience of the Courante and Counterpoint and defeats the whole listening experience.

 

[Lagonda]

So far, I have been a believer in subs being more or less in the plane of the main speakers + an inch or two WRT the listening position, but I am always open to other ideas. I think the concept of subs in the plane of the mains is a good one, but I am concerned that my 2x3 high '6 pack' of Rel subs may compromise the uncanny wall to wall to wall imaging of the Bayz speakers if they are adjacent to them. Only time and experimentation will determine which will work best for me; either in the plain of the mains or at the strongest L&R room modes behind the mains.
Stay Tuned.

It is a compromise between phase characteristics and the sub towers taking up valuable real estate to close to the mains when you deal with omnis. If you have a very large room, with plenty of distance to the side walls it is easier
to have them on a plane. But because omnis radiate behind and to the side the openness and 3D magic somewhat gets lost if sub towers are
placed to close to main speakers.
In my 6,5 m wide room i clearly prefer
the sub towers behind the plane of the Mbl main speakers.

 

[heebrog]

Hopefully this is not straying too far off topic but I'm not sure why REL promotes the "six pack" in a stack either inside or outside the mains depending on room width.
It seems more of a convenience/aesthetic issue which I guess is understandable considering the size of each unit.
I have just a stereo pair of REL's but if had had more I would explore placing them in various parts of the room rather than just one spot; albeit at different heights.
From my reading, it seems to make more sense to "pressurise" the room from various locations (The Swarm)
to get a more even response but still paying attention to distance from the listening position for better impulse response.

 

[Beachman]

heebrog: your theory is supported in the audio bible: "Sound Reproduction - Loudspeakers and Rooms" by Floyd E. Toole.

 

[musicfirst1]

You know i think i missed this....my apologies.
Yes, 100%.
I pay close attention when others say subs should be ahead or behind the mains.
My experience was I started with them the same distance from the listening position as the main speakers, and then crept them back until the front baffle of sub is about two inches further from lp than the front baffle of main speakers are, on the same arc, ten inches apart from the mains.
Any closer and the mains can't breathe like they should.
The most important principle is site your mains where they need to be, then the subs go alongside, fine tune by ear.
Don't let the subwoofer setup software dictate where the subs should go. The software will locate the point in the room where the sub works best. Counterintuitively, this isnt where you want them, unless you want to be selling them on again pronto cos they give you headache every time you play music even on level '1'
As Mark Seaton said elsewhere, the room cannot be in service to the subs.
Their job is not to tread on the toes of the main speakers, but to supplement and enhance them, and reinforce the deepest register. If you have them operating above 40hertz and it's not a party and you're not listening to dub reggae, sack your main speakers

Forgive the ramble, but hard won experience and all that

Thanks for this. Are there any recordings you can recommend that showcase the differences in the various subwoofer placements?

 

[infinitely baffled]

Top of my head....Machine Gun by Chase and Status, Get Ur Freak On by Missy Elliot.
Anything percussive that goes all the way down.
It should hit you all at once, coming from the same direction as everything else, with apologies to adherents to the DBA theory

 

[musicfirst1]

Top of my head....Machine Gun by Chase and Status, Get Ur Freak On by Missy Elliot.
Anything percussive that goes all the way down.
It should hit you all at once, coming from the same direction as everything else, with apologies to adherents to the DBA theory

Good tunes! Any others would be appreciated.

What is DBA?

 

[infinitely baffled]

Distributed Bass Array, aka swarm.
The competing theory, that advocates multiple placements around the room.
I tried it, was not persuaded. You can tell where sub bass comes from, the pressure differential within the room provide this information. Flattening the response using off axis placement, imho, is fine for a nightclub playing mono bass, but inadequate for audiophiles

 

[infinitely baffled]

Good tunes! Any others would be appreciated.

The album Oto by Fluke, truly superlative.
Likewise the Chase and Status album Brand New Machine,
Suspected by Foul Play,
Run the Jewels 2,
Leftism by Leftfield,also Rythmn and Stealth,
pretty much anything by Massive Attack, Mezzanine is my current fave
and no joking, the Madge - William Orbit masterpiece Ray of Light
And Big Calm by Morcheeba, just for Friction and Big Calm
I dunno if deep house is your thing, but the I Wanna Fixation ep by Leftwing and Kody is pretty awesome, Night Works by Laylo and Bushwacka is a classic
Even Shedding Skin by Ghost Poet has some lovely rumbles, and is a beautiful album. As is The K & D Sessions, Kruder and Dorfmeister. And Passion by Peter Gabriel....right up until it sucks your room out through the speakers.

Finally, if you want your friend / colleague / reviewer/ investor to almost literally shit themselves, it has to be https://www.discogs.com/Code-Of-Practice-Can-We-Change-The-Future-Remixes/release/42085. Don't warn them, just put it on and prepare for the look of disbelief. If you could time taking a surreptitious picture to the first deep bass note, you'd get some impossible to fake and priceless expressions for your sales literature