Respectfully I didn’t say they don’t make a difference. I was replying to the guy who refuted my belief that the amp is the most important component and used a weird remark to make his point.
best cost no object, cables
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Wow, after about 15 years of cable sobriety you still need to come to WBF threads on expensive cables to reinforce your conviction in public?
Some days I feel tempted by cable skepticism and listen with several types of non expensive cables for some time - say a week. However when I switch back to my usual cables the system seems so much better and the music so more enjoyable that my skepticism fades for long ...
One nice think about Floyd Toole, a known cable skeptic, is that he wrote it once in three lines in one page in his famous book and never referred to it again in more than 500 pages!
Ok, gotcha! I thought you said cables can make the most difference and I think this can actually be the case as described in my previous post. Amps are obviously a major part of a system and surely make a huge difference, I guess anything can if it's not a good fit with the system. But if something is a good fit I think we have so much choice in electronics and many of them are excellent so you don't get the same huge differences we saw a couple decades ago.
@twitch is ok though, despite our differences he has good taste in cars.
I think we're all more similar than we think, writing on a forum like this is much less ideal vs being face to face.
This was not the question....and which amp do you mean, pre, integrated power? What about source, speakers, room?
The synergy of a whole system is the key
We could ask why so much better electronics are more sensitive to AC power cables. Technically we would expect that better designed power supplies would be less sensitive to mains noise.
Listening to cables in a show? Better doing it in a circus!
Yes, but in general I found that the differences between speakers and electronics are easier to perceive and systematize than those between most cables. I need more time to listening to cables to get their sound signature than with other components.
Well it is not said that an exepensive cable is better. I tried a lot. But it is also a matter of taste. One prefers speed others resolution. More upper bass or neutrality. So everyone should find cables which work best in his own system and this doesn´t have to be the most exensive even if you do have any budget
I had the exact same experience with power conditioners. Heck, a friend visited his dealer and the dealer told him his 2 year old amps were junk. No mincing words. Told him they were junk and needed to be traded in to get the new upgraded version.My dealer used to say expensive cables make a hell of a difference .
Only problem is when i bought one , 5 months later a new one came out and he said thats substantially better then the one you have now
If the dealer was the source of those amps I would have looked squarely at the dealer (in person or virtually) and simply said "Why did you sell them to me?"
In my experience power cables (Hemingway Z-Core Beta, and Echole Omnia in my system for example) can make as big a difference as an amp or source change. And while more expensive doesn't always equal better, more money typically buys you better design/materials/construction/performance. The impact of speaker cable and interconnect upgrades in my experience is not as significant.
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Cableman says NOPE! A difference yes. As much as an amp? Nope just nope.
I use WyWires now, its top of the line Diamond models, on virtually all my cabling because I like the brand's modest warmth, in addition to all their other good qualities. A couple of months back, I finished the loom by replacing two of their Platinum model power cords with Diamonds on runs to ATC SCM40A actives. Surprise, same amps but warmth gone: lively, but tonally just on the other side of emotional draw ("neutral" doesn't work for me, big time). To get it back on my side, I found that replacing one rectifier tube out of eight tubes between dac and preamp made all the difference. That kind of experience is why I see it as all about system, with power cords in effect being components just like any other.
There are several products I use that buck that trend. My TAD speakers, while there was a mkii and new version, the upgrades were cosmetic. My PS audio DS Dac is only being replaced after about 8 years, and mine was actually upgraded from their previous peRfectwave DAC, so I’ve had a really good run with it (not to mention the total free transformations via firmware) My atma-sphere gear is totally upgradable to latest spec as well as Sound-smith strain gauge. I really like companies that don’t have planned obsolescence as part of their business model.This could go for literally any product.
Cars? You get upset when the new model year is better vs the previous one? But you had to have bought that car in the last year, right? Lol...
Speakers? How many times have Magico updated their line? Seems like at at least every other month. Same with Wilson, YG, etc, etc. etc... the new models are better than previous models.
DACs? It's too bad we aren't using the same DACs we were when CDs 1st came out I guess.
See a trend here?
Yes, while it took a few years to get there, I did the same with PS Audio’s dacs, moving through its hardware and then firmware upgrades, although for a bit shorter time than you. Same for some years with their power cords and regenerators as they expanded that line and my system expanded in need. Buying used or heavily discounted new very much limited the losses.
That experience, and just thinking about my goal with building a system, taught me to go with companies that aren’t turning over their lines every year or two, but rather focusing on getting the most of what I have, while allowing for updates of existing gear in whole or part in light of new developments. ATC, Supratek, Lampi, WyWires, and Purist Audio Design are examples of this (as was Oppo for a long time). That’s another reason why the search behind the title of this forum strikes me as opening one up to an endless search for a holy grail, rather to finding one’s own satisfaction.
That experience, and just thinking about my goal with building a system, taught me to go with companies that aren’t turning over their lines every year or two, but rather focusing on getting the most of what I have, while allowing for updates of existing gear in whole or part in light of new developments. ATC, Supratek, Lampi, WyWires, and Purist Audio Design are examples of this (as was Oppo for a long time). That’s another reason why the search behind the title of this forum strikes me as opening one up to an endless search for a holy grail, rather to finding one’s own satisfaction.
I agree somewhat... I understand the thought that that a good design should stand the test of time and it should, but only for it's time. One of the great things about humans and one of the only things that differentiates us from animals is our ability to improve things. For example bee hives are pretty amazing but they haven't changed in known history afaik. Humans improve what we know because we continuously learn and rather than lament it, it should be celebrated. However, it does suck to be the very last person to buy iPhone N when N+1 just came out...
When TAD R1s came out they were better than everything else by a large margin imo. Now I think YG and some other speakers have more than caught up. Same with Subaru and their STi, it was cool in '04 and it's a design that will stand the test of time but it sucks compared to a modern sports car right now in 2021. You can't rest on your laurels and think your great design is still going to be great in 10 or 20 years.
Fun car analogy. But sometimes it works the other way. In 2013 I bought a barely used 2010 911 just because I wanted a hatchback and the new improved auto transmission, which was the PDK. Turns out those cars are now highly sought after for a number of reasons including the pneumatic Steering (as opposed to the newer 911’s electronic steering) They also don’t make a hatchback any more, which will prove useful tomorrow when I have to drive my Strain Gauge system back to Sound-smith for updates and new styli. The car is worth more than I paid and while there is a bit of a bubble going on I can’t imagine I’ll loose money it. Even if a new speaker came along I really wanted (the upcoming PS audio could very well tempt me) I don’t think I could ever sell my CR1’s, as several people here seem to have sold TAD then bought them again.
Over the long term it NEVER works the other way. You can cherry pick specific exceptions but denying that humans making progress and improvements over time is a good thing seems awfully bizarre to me. People that think STis or TAD R1s are still modern tech at the top of the game are both fooling themselves.
I recently heard the Fidelum speaker cables in a WBF member's home connected to the highly revealing Tidal Audio Contrivan G2s where they sounded superb. Definitely recommended depending on your system and voicing preferences.
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