Is It Possible for a Manufacturer to Create a Design that Minimizes the Effects of Cables? Anyone you are familiar with?

[Ted Denney III]

Yeah, I have all my devices modified with PowerCon 32A. No need for any power conditioner

That’s exactly what we use on the back of our PowerCell line conditioners. And yet, there’s a dramatic shift from power cord to power cord when connected to PowerCon 32A connectors. Exactly like IEC connectors

 

[matthias]

That’s exactly what we use on the back of our PowerCell line conditioners. And yet, there’s a dramatic shift from power cord to power cord when connected to PowerCon 32A connectors. Exactly like IEC connectors

Yes, powercords have impact, but Powercon 32A as connectors are better anyway. You use it only as input for your line conditioners.
Why are serious manufacturers so reluctant to replace all IEC connectors with PowerCons?

 

[Ted Denney III]

Yes, powercords have impact, but Powercon 32A as connectors are better anyway. You use it only as input for your line conditioners.
Why are serious manufacturers so reluctant to replace all IEC connectors with PowerCons?

Yes, they’re the best— clearly so. That’s why I’ve been spec’ing them from day one on our line conditioners. Frankly, I’m surprised they’ve not proliferated by now.

 

[matthias]

Frankly, I’m surprised they’ve not proliferated by now.

You can start with your devices replacing all IECs by PowerCons, maybe other manufacturers will follow...

 

[andromedaaudio]

At your wishes .

 

[Holmz]

At your wishes .


View attachment 145541

What is it?
It looks like something to install as a bathroom cabinet, but masquerading as a speaker.
It does not look like edge diffraction was a consideration.

At least show the connector if the intent is to show a SpeakOn or PowerCon.

 

[andromedaaudio]

What is it?
It looks like something to install as a bathroom cabinet, but masquerading as a speaker.
It does not look like edge diffraction was a consideration.

At least show the connector if the intent is to show a SpeakOn or PowerCon.

Cardas Solid copper connectors Rhodium plated
(Milled from solid copper )
Internal connectors solid copper

 

[andromedaaudio]

What is it?

This is a loudspeaker .

 

[andromedaaudio]

FYI you d be surprised how many connectors ( although looking fancy and well engineered )are actually made from cheap brass.
Scrape some coating off with a file and you ll find out

 

[Holmz]

It does not look like there is much bracing in there, nor any sound absorbing materials.
And also unsure whether it is standard practice to tie down the wires so that they do not buzz against the box.

I would like to see what the impedance graph looks like.

 

[andromedaaudio]

It does not look like there is much bracing in there, nor any sound absorbing materials.
And also unsure whether it is standard practice to tie down the wires so that they do not buzz against the box.

I would like to see what the impedance graph looks like.

2 Bracings inside .

Midrange section has angled walls to diffuse the back wave .

I havent taken an impedance measurement yet so far .
FR is flat +- 2db

 

[Ted Denney III]

You can start with your devices replacing all IECs by PowerCons, maybe other manufacturers will follow...

I can’t believe they’re not prolific in power conditioners. Smaller, lighter boxes, if something‘s got to give, you want it to be the power cord popping out, not the component falling to the floor. One benefit of running 32 amp, power,con connectors, even though our active components, come standard with high-end Synergistic Research power cords, Would be that it would preclude people from using other cables, this would forced compliance to the SR ecosystem, where the use of multiple SR products tends to cause contagion, dramatically increases the likelihood that the loom takes hold in the system,. I’ll think about it.

 

[microstrip]

(...) Why are serious manufacturers so reluctant to replace all IEC connectors with PowerCons?

Easy. 99% of buying people are reasonable people, not fanatic audiophiles. Imagine you have a problem with your toaster cable in the morning. Where will you get a cable to get a decent breakfast?

BTW, the majority of the remaining 1% will be more interested in the "magic" of the metal contacts than in boring things, such as contact resistance.

 

[Ted Denney III]

Easy. 99% of buying people are reasonable people, not fanatic audiophiles. Imagine you have a problem with your toaster cable in the morning. Where will you get a cable to get a decent breakfast?

BTW, the majority of the remaining 1% will be more interested in the "magic" of the metal contacts than in boring things, such as contact resistance.

I don’t build products for the masses, I build products for discerning consumers.

 

[microstrip]

I don’t build products for the masses, I build products for discerning consumers.

So, a discerning consumer must have PowerCons? Thanks.

 

[DaveC]

Clearly their gear supports the standards of balanced line operation.

This was a remark about POWER cables.

---------------

I won't relitigate previous debates on this topic, but the issue is almost nobody in the industry uses 600 ohm in/out trafos and there's a good reason why... basically, it's not necessary and for the trafo to not dominate the sound it needs to be excellent quality and hence extremely expensive. It could be when you did your testing 50 years ago, the trafos were masking the cables' effect.

If your thoughts on XLR were true, then speaker and power cables wouldn't make a difference either as they operate in an even lower impedance environment with speakers generally being 4-8 ohms and the standard for AC power is usually 50 ohms for EMI/RFI filter design.

 

[DaveC]

Is It Possible for a Manufacturer to Create a Design that Minimizes the Effects of Cables?

Obviously, one way to do it is to reduce the number of boxes and provide proprietary connections as dCS has done with Varese. One of their sales pitches is : upgrade cost is not as high , as you need less cables.

But is there anything that a Manufacturer can do in terms of the design itself?

thanks

Yes. My number one goal is to reduce any audible additions cables make. It's not possible to get to zero effect, but it is definitely possible to reduce the cable's contribution to the point it's difficult to discern what character the cable is adding.

 

[DaveC]

In fact, your report (and my experiences long ago) contradict all the math and theory and most Dartzeel claims - once we say that two 50 ohm BNC cables sound different it shows that the implementation did not have success. We should take marketing claims with a few grains of salt - no problem with them, the problem is when believe them.

I think it does solve one issue, it doesn't solve them all though. Dart goes too far in extolling the virtues of this std, just like Ralph goes too far in claiming "cable immunity" if you use 600 ohm trafos.

One slightly interesting example is the Burson cables that were briefly on the market some years ago. They gave them out for free. The cables contained an active buffer/zero-gain preamp in the cable powered by USB. The cable was pretty cheap, maybe a couple hundred dollars, so this buffer should be a huge downgrade, but this is not what happened in some systems. It turns out the buffer made a huge improvement for some people, but I think the issue is the sending component's output section and it's sensitivity to what load it's driving. Of course a properly designed output section would also negate any "improvement" inserting a $5 buffer might make, but so will a 50-ohm std. It's one way to skin the cat and eliminate at least one variable in signal transmission. I tested my Sony ES server and it sounds exactly the same driving 10k vs 100k loads, but this isn't the case for all components.

 

[DaveC]

The more usually referred reason is simpler signal path, less components. And then people associate a lot of subjective qualities to this fact.
Or simply they do not like the sound signature of balanced. It is a common subject in high-end designers interviews.



If you disconnect safety grounds on amplifiers it can be hum free - I had to do it on Lamm ML3's to use long cables. But each case is a separate case, depending on mains system and system layout. However SE usually does not have problems with up six feet cables. A long SE cable will always create a ground loop - the area defined by the ground of the signal cable and the ground of the mains cable. It is simple geometry. We can break it using special devices, but is code approved in some countries.

Not always. While there's no real std for grounding, most components will do something to isolate IEC ground such as a ground loop inductor:

DENO - Ground wire choke, open design

DENO - Ground wire choke, open design

www.schurter.com

In my relatively simple tube amplified system it doesn't matter, I've tried multiple ground isolation schemes, but in some cases it does matter.

It is interesting that it's possible for the ground leg in the power cable to act as a return in a single ended system though, and this can indeed provide a loop area for interference. But I would guess most component manufacturers isolate safety/IEC ground. Some, like my Sony ES server, even use double isolation and have no ground at all.

 

[DaveC]

Microstip isn't wrong. The thing about ground loops is they can be insidious. Instead of hum and buzz, they can simply raise the noise floor a little, thus obscuring low level detail and cause intermodulations which do the same and make the system less relaxed. Its the sort of thing that you really won't know about until its somehow gone.

Ok, now I have to agree with you. It can even cause buildup of contaminants in ground connections. But ground loops are not a given in SE systems as mentioned above.