Is It Possible for a Manufacturer to Create a Design that Minimizes the Effects of Cables? Anyone you are familiar with?

[analogsa]

Why did they prefer the sound signatures created by simple single-ended circuits.

Surely there is some context to this preference. As far as amps go, some topologies yield very easily to balanced connections and others do not.

It makes little sense to add a balanced link between a SE preamp and a SET power amp. Apart from the exceptionally rare case where the preamp output and the power amp input are both transformer coupled, this entails the addition of intrusive extra stages. Which is the lesser of the two evils?

Otoh, many PP topologies, bridged PP or SE amplifiers and circlotrons are perfectly adaptable to balanced connections without any additional penalties. In many cases it is the SE connections that require an additional stage.

Of course the harmonic profiles are usually different. PP topologies diminish the even harmonics, balancing diminishes them even further. Some people do not like this.

 

[microstrip]

We still have one or two left, they keep quoting F.Toole, technically measurements and rely on reviews instead of their own ears. You will never see these people describing the beauty of music or performance of an artist, high-fi is a debatable scholarly exercise !

Misrepresenting others is a common tactic of those who have nothing to add to a debate except attacking the messenger and personal fights. Sorry to find you jumped in such wagon.

Anyway I am happy to see you now know how to spell the name of a reference scholar in stereo, my time was not lost!

 

[andromedaaudio]

@ Micro you should send Lagonda and the rest of the non believers a free copy.

 

[microstrip]

(...) Of course the harmonic profiles are usually different. PP topologies diminish the even harmonics, balancing diminishes them even further. Some people do not like this.

A small semantics clarification - they do not "diminish", they "add" less even harmonics. It is an important aspect.

 

[microstrip]

@ Micro you should send Lagonda and the rest of the non believers a free copy.


View attachment 145083

Have you read the book?

 

[bonzo75]

Have you read the book?

You will quote it a few times for free

 

[andromedaaudio]

Have you read the book?

No.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Have you read the book?

My manager says i have to much stress at work already .
Im forbidden to read it , as it might just tip the scale

 

[Ron Resnick]

Of course the harmonic profiles are usually different. PP topologies diminish the even harmonics, balancing diminishes them even further. Some people do not like this.

On a different thread responding to a post of mine Ralph of atma-sphere wrote:

. . . if the equipment is internally balanced (especially if differential) it will be inherently lower distortion as active balanced circuits can cancel even-ordered harmonics. This results in much lower distortion and since the 3rd harmonic is treated the same as the 2nd, it is able to mask higher ordered harmonics, which decrease at a faster rate as the order of the harmonic is increased as opposed to single-ended circuits. So in addition to inherently lower distortion also inherently more musical.

Do you understand why Ralph is suggesting that canceling even ordered harmonics can be inherently more musical?

 

[Ted Denney III]

On a different thread responding to a post of mine Ralph of atma-sphere wrote:

. . . if the equipment is internally balanced (especially if differential) it will be inherently lower distortion as active balanced circuits can cancel even-ordered harmonics. This results in much lower distortion and since the 3rd harmonic is treated the same as the 2nd, it is able to mask higher ordered harmonics, which decrease at a faster rate as the order of the harmonic is increased as opposed to single-ended circuits. So in addition to inherently lower distortion also inherently more musical.

Do you understand why Ralph is suggesting that canceling even ordered harmonics can be inherently more musical?

Having worked with dual differential balanced circuits—from pre-amp to power amp—and even dual mono balanced circuitry, I can attest that it doesn’t negate the impact of cables. Cable differences are still audible, just as they are with less ambitious circuits. You simply start from a higher point of performance. In my 33 years of experience, I have never encountered electronics that eliminate the need for quality cabling or render the effects of cables inaudible, which I believe is the crux of this discussion.

For reference, during cable voicing, we have used the Soulution 710 Amplifier and 725 pre-amplifiers, both of which feature true dual differential circuit designs. Audible differences in cable design—changes we make based on what we hear in the voicing process, for which there are no corresponding objective measurements—still persist. These are the forks in the road where we must decide between options A or B. We listen and select the option that sounds best, or if there’s no discernible difference, we opt for the lower-cost option to reduce the ultimate retail price of the product.

Importantly, these differences can be heard even with dual differential balanced circuitry. The presence of such sophisticated circuitry does not render cable differences imperceptible; rather, it provides a more refined starting point from which these differences can be evaluated.

 

[microstrip]

On a different thread responding to a post of mine Ralph of atma-sphere wrote:

. . . if the equipment is internally balanced (especially if differential) it will be inherently lower distortion as active balanced circuits can cancel even-ordered harmonics. This results in much lower distortion and since the 3rd harmonic is treated the same as the 2nd, it is able to mask higher ordered harmonics, which decrease at a faster rate as the order of the harmonic is increased as opposed to single-ended circuits. So in addition to inherently lower distortion also inherently more musical.

Do you understand why Ralph is suggesting that canceling even ordered harmonics can be inherently more musical?

I hope Ralph chimes here - he explained it before in WBF referring to some acoustic research carried in the 60's. FIY our great debates in WBF about this subject date from 2016 - properly asking ChatGPT it immediately referred to them! Ralph has posted a lot on it.

 

[Atmasphere]

Well, I respectfully disagree. I don’t recall seeing you at trade shows since the early 90’s, but that’s the Formula One event for Audio manufacturers. That’s where we set up, deal with the same track (room/electricity/ground) conditions, and go head-to-head to see who gets best sound. In fact, the last time I saw you at a tradeshow I believe was CES 93. When I was with my mentor Julius of Audire.

Disagreement is fine- no skin off anyone's back. My first trade show was 1989 CES at the Riviera.

By the way, did you ever answer my question about Soulution electronics?

Yes. https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...yone-you-are-familiar-with.40163/post-1029391

It makes little sense to add a balanced link between a SE preamp and a SET power amp.

I can think of an excellent reason: Since SETs have a high output impedance, its useful to keep the speaker cables as short as possible. If the SET is in monoblocks they can be placed close to the speaker to this effect. Meanwhile if there is no restraint on the cable length, the front end of the system can be placed in the best location rather than forced to sit between the speakers, which is not always the best location or look. My equipment stand is actually located off of the listening area to reduce input from vibration.

circlotrons are perfectly adaptable to balanced connections without any additional penalties.

Our preamps employ the Circlotron as a balanced output; we have two patents in that regard.

Having worked with dual differential balanced circuits—from pre-amp to power amp—and even dual mono balanced circuitry, I can attest that it doesn’t negate the impact of cables.

This is true. In order to prevent cable interaction, our preamps use a patented Circlotron output circuit that is a buffer between the differential gain stage and the interconnect cable. This eliminates the need for an output coupling capacitor. The floating aspect of a Circlotron circuit allows it to support AES48 and the lower output impedance Circlotrons have over conventional output circuits allows it to support +10dBm (+10VU reading while driving a 600 Ohm load).

I have never encountered electronics that eliminate the need for quality cabling or render the effects of cables inaudible

This is not proof any anything other than exactly what it says- that is your experience and I don't contest it.

Importantly, these differences can be heard even with dual differential balanced circuitry.

I'm a big fan of differential circuitry and have been using it longer than most people on this thread since we made the world's first fully differential balanced line preamp way back in 1989 (our amps were using differential circuits for years prior to that). I agree with this statement wholeheartedly.

But if you refer to the link I provided you above, since you missed that post, you'll see that I don't think AES48 is supported by the Soulution preamp. This causes cables to become more audible IME.

Its good that equipment can be so revealing as to reveal cable differences. Its bad that they do so because that means something still isn't right. I pointed out the reason that is so prior:

If you can hear cable differences that's a bad thing. The reason is simple: if you compared two cables and found one to be better than the other (better stage depth, more detail, smoother sound, etc) the simple fact is next year that manufacturer will have a newer better cable and if he doesn't someone else will. So obviously both cables were wrong from the outset.

What we want is the cable to not editorialize, to not color the sound; to simply get out of the way and do its job. When you rely on cable geometry, materials and construction for the that, there will always be colorations. But if you simply implement a system that prevents the cable misbehaving then you can have it be truly neutral.

The irony of this is that technology was figured out 70 years ago.

I figured that by bringing that technology into home audio systems audiophiles would love not having to mess with cables- plug and play. That is why we created our preamps. But in the intervening decades I have to admit to being disappointed at how much misinformation about cables persists and how few manufacturers actually support balanced line standards, particularly in preamps.

No-one bats an eye at supporting USB standards; that's because if the cable doesn't do it there's a good chance the setup won't even play. But balanced lines will still make a sound if the standards aren't supported- it just won't sound right, in much the same way that anyone can throw some speaker drivers in a box, ignoring Theil Small parameters and it will still play.

 

[Ted Denney III]

Disagreement is fine- no skin off anyone's back. My first trade show was 1989 CES at the Riviera.

Yes. https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...yone-you-are-familiar-with.40163/post-1029391

I can think of an excellent reason: Since SETs have a high output impedance, its useful to keep the speaker cables as short as possible. If the SET is in monoblocks they can be placed close to the speaker to this effect. Meanwhile if there is no restraint on the cable length, the front end of the system can be placed in the best location rather than forced to sit between the speakers, which is not always the best location or look. My equipment stand is actually located off of the listening area to reduce input from vibration.

Our preamps employ the Circlotron as a balanced output; we have two patents in that regard.

This is true. In order to prevent cable interaction, our preamps use a patented Circlotron output circuit that is a buffer between the differential gain stage and the interconnect cable. This eliminates the need for an output coupling capacitor. The floating aspect of a Circlotron circuit allows it to support AES48 and the lower output impedance Circlotrons have over conventional output circuits allows it to support +10dBm (+10VU reading while driving a 600 Ohm load).

This is not proof any anything other than exactly what it says- that is your experience and I don't contest it.

I'm a big fan of differential circuitry and have been using it longer than most people on this thread since we made the world's first fully differential balanced line preamp way back in 1989 (our amps were using differential circuits for years prior to that). I agree with this statement wholeheartedly.

But if you refer to the link I provided you above, since you missed that post, you'll see that I don't think AES48 is supported by the preamp. This causes cables to become more audible IME.

Its good that equipment can be so revealing as to reveal cable differences. Its bad that they do so because that means something still isn't right. I pointed out the reason that is so prior:

What we want is the cable to not editorialize, to not color the sound; to simply get out of the way and do its job. When you rely on cable geometry, materials and construction for the that, there will always be colorations. But if you simply implement a system that prevents the cable misbehaving then you can have it be truly neutral.

The irony of this is that technology was figured out 70 years ago.

I figured that by bringing that technology into home audio systems audiophiles would love not having to mess with cables- plug and play. That is why we created our preamps. But in the intervening decades I have to admit to being disappointed at how much misinformation about cables persists and how few manufacturers actually support balanced line standards, particularly in preamps.

No-one bats an eye at supporting USB standards; that's because if the cable doesn't do it there's a good chance the setup won't even play. But balanced lines will still make a sound if the standards aren't supported- it just won't sound right, in much the same way that anyone can throw some speaker drivers in a box, ignoring Theil Small parameters and it will still play.

Are you located in California by any chance? Southern California?

 

[Atmasphere]

Do you understand why Ralph is suggesting that canceling even ordered harmonics can be inherently more musical?

I have explained this many times. Here are the basic facts:

1)the ear treats the 3rd harmonic much like the 2nd. Anyone doubting this has to explain why people seem to be OK with reel to reel tape; any properly functioning tape recorder tends to make a 3rd harmonic as its dominant distortion product. Studios actually use analog tape for this reason to 'warm up' the sound as an effect.

2) when the circuit is fully differential from input to output the 3rd harmonic is dominant.

3) Mathematically this is known as a 'cubic non-linearity'. Single-ended circuits create a 'quadratic non-linearity' which is considerably higher distortion (most SETs are 10% at full power).

4) In sufficient amplitude, either the 2nd or 3rd harmonic can mask the presence of higher ordered harmonics.

5) Higher ordered harmonics are the ones the ear finds unpleasant. The ear assigns tonality to harmonics which is how musical instruments have tone color. If higher ordered harmonics are added, the ear interprets them as harshness and brightness.

6) to that end, its important to understand that the ear uses higher ordered harmonics to tell how loud a sound is. That is why the higher ordered harmonic content does not have be much before its audible.

7) Balanced circuitry cancels even orders so all harmonics fall off from the fundamental tone at a faster rate according to the exponent of the cubic function (sorry to invoke engineering stuff here, but you asked). If you read all of the above then you see that a fully differential balanced circuit is inherently more musical because higher ordered harmonics play considerably less influence.

Are you located in California by any chance? Southern California?

Minnesota. Guessing you've not been reading my posts in any depth or you'd already know that. I mentioned going to listening sessions with Robert Fulton and Bill Johnson...

 

[Slingblade]

I've spoken extensively to David Salz of Wireworld (great guy by the way), who started his company by placing components back to back and fusing the output connectors of a source directly to the input connectors of the preamp eliminating any cabling.

He used that as his benchmark and built cables that came the closest to reproducing the result. I can't think of a better design philosophy than that. I really like his cables too.

 

[Ted Denney III]

I have explained this many times. Here are the basic facts:

1)the ear treats the 3rd harmonic much like the 2nd. Anyone doubting this has to explain why people seem to be OK with reel to reel tape; any properly functioning tape recorder tends to make a 3rd harmonic as its dominant distortion product. Studios actually use analog tape for this reason to 'warm up' the sound as an effect.

2) when the circuit is fully differential from input to output the 3rd harmonic is dominant.

3) Mathematically this is known as a 'cubic non-linearity'. Single-ended circuits create a 'quadratic non-linearity' which is considerably higher distortion (most SETs are 10% at full power).

4) In sufficient amplitude, either the 2nd or 3rd harmonic can mask the presence of higher ordered harmonics.

5) Higher ordered harmonics are the ones the ear finds unpleasant. The ear assigns tonality to harmonics which is how musical instruments have tone color. If higher ordered harmonics are added, the ear interprets them as harshness and brightness.

6) to that end, its important to understand that the ear uses higher ordered harmonics to tell how loud a sound is. That is why the higher ordered harmonic content does not have be much before its audible.

7) Balanced circuitry cancels even orders so all harmonics fall off from the fundamental tone at a faster rate according to the exponent of the cubic function (sorry to invoke engineering stuff here, but you asked). If you read all of the above then you see that a fully differential balanced circuit is inherently more musical because higher ordered harmonics play considerably less influence.

Minnesota. Guessing you've not been reading my posts in any depth or you'd already know that. I mentioned going to listening sessions with Robert Fulton and Bill Johnson...

I was just hoping against hope you were in Southern California

 

[analogsa]

I can think of an excellent reason: Since SETs have a high output impedance, its useful to keep the speaker cables as short as possible.

The output impedance of a typical SET is perhaps in the order of 3ohms. A 10m run of speaker wires will increase this by how much? 2-3%? Can anyone notice this?

 

[Atmasphere]

The output impedance of a typical SET is perhaps in the order of 3ohms. A 10m run of speaker wires will increase this by how much? 2-3%? Can anyone notice this?

If its a matter of the signal going one way I doubt it. But most speakers have some kind of back EMF which makes the amp/speaker relationship a lot more complex! So yes, you can hear it.

 

[Holmz]

On a different thread responding to a post of mine Ralph of atma-sphere wrote:

. . . if the equipment is internally balanced (especially if differential) it will be inherently lower distortion as active balanced circuits can cancel even-ordered harmonics. This results in much lower distortion and since the 3rd harmonic is treated the same as the 2nd, it is able to mask higher ordered harmonics, which decrease at a faster rate as the order of the harmonic is increased as opposed to single-ended circuits. So in addition to inherently lower distortion also inherently more musical.

Those systems with lower distortion can sound quieter.
But so many drivers and speakers have distortion numbers that are not small., that one is often starting out observing ripples on the water, but the water is already swirling mess.

Do you understand why Ralph is suggesting that canceling even ordered harmonics can be inherently more musical?

What does “more musical” even mean?
This is a subjective hole that is hard to extract one’s self out of.

We can have super high distortion amps and speakers that people will swear upon sacred scrolls are the most musical systems ever.
And running those with astronomically priced cables, which have the lore of being designed over a cauldron by some warlock, magi, or wizard.

Then on the other side, years ago, balanced lines arrived… and alleviated all sorts of issues in studios and concerts etc.

I have explained this many times. Here are the basic facts:

1)the ear treats the 3rd harmonic much like the 2nd. Anyone doubting this has to explain why people seem to be OK with reel to reel tape; any properly functioning tape recorder tends to make a 3rd harmonic as its dominant distortion product. Studios actually use analog tape for this reason to 'warm up' the sound as an effect.

2) when the circuit is fully differential from input to output the 3rd harmonic is dominant.

3) Mathematically this is known as a 'cubic non-linearity'. Single-ended circuits create a 'quadratic non-linearity' which is considerably higher distortion (most SETs are 10% at full power).

4) In sufficient amplitude, either the 2nd or 3rd harmonic can mask the presence of higher ordered harmonics.

5) Higher ordered harmonics are the ones the ear finds unpleasant. The ear assigns tonality to harmonics which is how musical instruments have tone color. If higher ordered harmonics are added, the ear interprets them as harshness and brightness.

6) to that end, its important to understand that the ear uses higher ordered harmonics to tell how loud a sound is. That is why the higher ordered harmonic content does not have be much before its audible.

I can abide all of ^this^.

7) Balanced circuitry cancels even orders so all harmonics fall off from the fundamental tone at a faster rate according to the exponent of the cubic function (sorry to invoke engineering stuff here, but you asked). If you read all of the above then you see that a fully differential balanced circuit is inherently more musical because higher ordered harmonics play considerably less influence.

What does musical even mean?
I would bet that I can find handfuls of people that will swear upon sacred scrolls, that all the extra distortions are “more musical”.
Personally I find that lower distortion is something I like better, and when the system sound quieter, then there is a magic to it, which not all systems can seem to achieve.

Minnesota. Guessing you've not been reading my posts in any depth or you'd already know that. I mentioned going to listening sessions with Robert Fulton and Bill Johnson...

It certainly appears he has not.
Nor does it appear that he has even done a simple Google search, etc.

I've spoken extensively to David Salz of Wireworld (great guy by the way), who started his company by placing components back to back and fusing the output connectors of a source directly to the input connectors of the preamp eliminating any cabling.

He used that as his benchmark and built cables that came the closest to reproducing the result. I can't think of a better design philosophy than that. I really like his cables too.

OK - I guess he made an integrated amp?

What do those fused connections look like?
What was the effective capacitance and inductance?

If one knew that, then would they have a way to describe which cable is objectively closest to a fused connection?

 

[Slingblade]

@Holmz

I don’t remember the details but there is a lot of info on their website that everyone may find interesting.

Importance of Neutral Cables for Music Reproduction | Wireworld

Did you know that using neutral cables is an essential part of high-quality music reproduction? Learn about Wireworld's philosophy and technologies today.

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