Is It Possible for a Manufacturer to Create a Design that Minimizes the Effects of Cables? Anyone you are familiar with?

[Atmasphere]

re there more convincing explanations for sonic differencies when all other variables are kept constant and just the metallurgy is varied? Ofc vs occ vs all the silver and gold flavours?

Extruding silver wire is a bit of a trick due to the temperatures involved. So its often done with Teflon, which can handle the heat. Its also common to have it be a plating for a copper wire and so I suspect pure silver is uncommon.

Copper doesn't have such a high extrusion temperature which is why it can be used with dielectrics that melt at much lower temperatures (like polyethylene)

As you can imagine, this sort of thing affects how much oxidation is present. I've seen pure silver wire with Teflon insulation where the insulation was really a bit of Teflon tubing. This allows oxidation into the wire... fun fact copper oxidizes pretty fast. When its unoxidized it looks more like silver. The copper color comes in after a bit of oxygen exposure.

Sometimes you see VooDoo invoked in some of the marketing write up. As far as the wire is concerned there is a reason it sounds the way it does and you can expect different results depending on the system in which its used.

 

[pk_LA]

I have a question that no one will be able to answer. What components exist today, that sound identical, regardless of which cables are connecting them?

I’ll wait.

Boulder 3060 and Boulder 3010. Multiple audiophiles. Multiple dealers. Nobody was able to hear ANY difference between cheap stock cables and a variety of well established reference cables.

 

[Ted Denney III]

Boulder 3060 and Boulder 3010. Multiple audiophiles. Multiple dealers. Nobody was able to hear ANY difference between cheap stock cables and a variety of well established reference cables.

I’ve played with Boulder gear, a lot of my clients have it, where cables make a massive difference. Just like every other component.

 

[Ted Denney III]

This statement is false except for the part about being Crystal clear. It suggests to me you've not spent time with recording equipment or the like which is understandable- most audiophiles have not.

Your statement is broadly true of most audiophile equipment and a lot of semi pro recording equipment. Its not true of ours for the simple reason we are one of the very few 'high end audio' manufacturers that bothers to support all the balanced line standards.

Its like I said before, if we are being Crystal clear; the balanced line standards make possible three benefits: no ground loops, rejection of noise impinged on the cable and no cable artifact. The benefit is there if the cable is only 6 inches long but obviously makes long cables possible too.

I've been running a recording studio since sometime in my early 20s, so since the mid 1970s. I've been hearing cable differences most of that time too, until I was able to build a preamp and amps that supported the balanced line standards.

My recommendation is get some actual recording studio gear and hook it all up. That is exactly what I did.

FWIW, I'm not killing your market or that of any other high end cable manufacturer. This is for the simple reason that what I've said only applies to equipment that supports the balanced line standards and has to be at either end of the cable for that to work. The simple fact is most manufacturers of high end audio equipment prefer to ignore the standards or are ignorant of them (I'm not sure which).

If what you are saying were actually true, record labels in the 1950s could not have put out the consistent product they did.

I don't know. I suspect they do not in the preamp although their amps probably do.

But you need both ends to support the standard.

One tell the preamp doesn't is they don't have a balanced input for the phono section- an obvious thing to do since phono cartridges are balanced sources. They do not mention anything about supporting AES48 anywhere on their website. They say the output of the preamp is similar to their 711 amplifier. Looking at that amp, there's no warning about the output floating (which could be a source of possible damage if a grounded subwoofer were connected to the outputs) so I think the minus output speaker terminals are at ground potential. If the preamp uses a similar circuit then its output is two single ended outputs, one out of phase with the other. So (and this is entirely surmise on my part) I think the input of the amp is AES48 compliant but but the critical output of the preamp isn't. So I expect you might hear cable differences with that gear.

Well, I respectfully disagree. I don’t recall seeing you at trade shows since the early 90’s, but that’s the Formula One event for Audio manufacturers. That’s where we set up, deal with the same track (room/electricity/ground) conditions, and go head-to-head to see who gets best sound. In fact, the last time I saw you at a tradeshow I believe was CES 93. When I was with my mentor Julius of Audire. By the way, did you ever answer my question about Soulution electronics?

 

[Ted Denney III]

there is an important difference between there being a 'sound' difference or not, and hearing an actual experientially different result in the music.

you can measure the sound, but not the music. it depends on humans. and sometimes we cannot hear a difference between two sets of cables. it happens. not every system shows us differences equally, either. musically context matters.

By hearing a sound difference, I mean an overwhelming qualitative improvement. Black and white, night and day. And of course you’re correct. Some stereos are the equivalent of a Ferrari, many others are a Hooptie. Adding performance parts to a Ferrari, can improve the driving experience or lower lap times. The same parts on a Hooptie would likely be not noticeable.

 

[pk_LA]

I’ve played with Boulder gear, a lot of my clients have it, where cables make a massive difference. Just like every other component.

Maybe you're 'playing' with the lower end kit.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

By hearing a sound difference, I mean an overwhelming qualitative improvement. Black and white, night and day.

your answer is not an answer. it's not complete as a statement. here is what you claimed;

>>>>There are no audio components that use cables on this planet, where the sound of the system does not change when the cables are changed<<<<.

and i'm saying that there are plenty of cases where we hear no difference when comparing different cables. i'm not claiming there is no measurable difference, only that we cannot always audibly hear it. every time. sometimes the cable signatures are too similar. these are, by definition, anecdotal occurrences since you cannot prove a negative of a subjective perception. we can point to flaws in our methods, or systems, but these cases happen. we cannot begin every compare assuming there are differences we will hear. we have to be objective. no pre-conceived results. and sometimes we cannot reliably tell the difference.

maybe if my business was involved i might hear a difference every time?

edit---you have substantially changed your above referenced post since i responded.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

By hearing a sound difference, I mean an overwhelming qualitative improvement. Black and white, night and day. And of course you’re correct. Some stereos are the equivalent of a Ferrari, many others are a Hooptie. Adding performance parts to a Ferrari, can improve the driving experience or lower lap times. The same parts on a Hooptie would likely be not noticeable.

so now your edited post suggests that not all systems are equal at revealing differences. which i do agree with. but my point is still the same. no system can 100% reveal differences between any/every two sets of cables. but it's an unknowable thing for either of us. in a real world, we can never have the best system, nor hear all cable compares.

we are left with our experiences. this is WBF, we are listeners with opinions. not proof.

 

[microstrip]

(...) Ofc vs occ vs all the silver and gold flavours? And yes, let's not forget platinum too.

Yes, there are many explanations for it, mainly related with surface oxidation and behaviour of the wire layers close to surface. Van den Hul addressed this aspect in his old writings.

What do the correlations say?

Correlations say the diversity of stereo systems is so large that it impossible to correlate exact sound attributes with metals. But some people speak louder than others and manage to create myths.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

By hearing a sound difference, I mean an overwhelming qualitative improvement. Black and white, night and day. And of course you’re correct. Some stereos are the equivalent of a Ferrari, many others are a Hooptie. Adding performance parts to a Ferrari, can improve the driving experience or lower lap times. The same parts on a Hooptie would likely be not noticeable.

btw; you did not suggest that you are using you own cables for this compare to another brand. yet; without you being specific about it, it seems like this is what you might be inferring.

can you clarify this issue? just trying to make sure i understand what you are claiming based on my reading the posts of yours i quoted. maybe previous posts connected it differently which i had not considered. overall intent of a post is not always clear from only that post.

 

[microstrip]

Boulder 3060 and Boulder 3010. Multiple audiophiles. Multiple dealers. Nobody was able to hear ANY difference between cheap stock cables and a variety of well established reference cables.

Sorry, but this kind of generic post without any details on the methodology, complete system and details on cables being used is just adding noise.

Negative expectation bias is as dangerous as positive expectation bias.

 

[Ted Denney III]

btw; you did not suggest that you are using you own cables for this compare to another brand. yet; it seems like this is what you might be inferring.

can you clarify this issue? just trying to make sure i understand what you are claiming based on my reading the posts of yours i quoted. maybe previous posts connected it differently which i had not considered. overall intent of a post is not always clear from only that post.

It is not necessary that I pump my brand in this discussion. My observation stands.

 

[Ted Denney III]

so now your edited post suggests that not all systems are equal at revealing differences. which i do agree with. but my point is still the same. no system can 100% reveal differences between any/every two sets of cables. but it's an unknowable thing for either of us. in a real world, we can never have the best system, nor hear all cable compares.

we are left with our experiences. this is WBF, we are listeners with opinions. not proof.

No, I simply edited it because I use verbal dictation, then when I see it in writing, sometimes I go back and correct it. What you see written is what I mean at face value.

 

[analogsa]

Yes, there are many explanations for it, mainly related with surface oxidation and behaviour of the wire layers close to surface. Van den Hul addressed this aspect in his old writings.

Once you put together numbers and notice the complete lack of measurements, it becomes clear why these explanations are more like Voodoo than science. At what level do these effects manifest themselves? -200db?

 

[Holmz]

Easy - they considered that the advantages of balance cables are not needed for domestic audio and the added complexity and cost of balanced audio increases cost without benefit. Also they prefer the sound signatures created by simple single ended circuits.
...

With astronomically the high cost of some cables, it seems like any added complexity and cost of balanced cables/system can be considered to be comparatively small.

 

[microstrip]

Once you put together numbers and notice the complete lack of measurements, it becomes clear why these explanations are more like Voodoo than science. At what level do these effects manifest themselves? -200db?

You should read van den Hul - he reported differences at the level of -140dB.
But there is a lot more in audio cables than just the audio bandwidth.

 

[pk_LA]

Sorry, but this kind of generic post without any details on the methodology, complete system and details on cables being used is just adding noise.

Negative expectation bias is as dangerous as positive expectation bias.

I disagree.