Is It Possible for a Manufacturer to Create a Design that Minimizes the Effects of Cables? Anyone you are familiar with?

[Ted Denney III]

@Holmz

I don’t remember the details but there is a lot of info on their website that everyone may find interesting.

Importance of Neutral Cables for Music Reproduction | Wireworld

Did you know that using neutral cables is an essential part of high-quality music reproduction? Learn about Wireworld's philosophy and technologies today.

wireworldcable.com

Define a “neutral” cable? How is that determined? Is it determined subjectively when listening to a cable in the system? And if so, what system? Is it determined by a suite of measurements? If so, what measurements?

 

[Atmasphere]

What does musical even mean?

One thing is certain in my book: Its not neutral if its not musical. Low distortion can be quite musical. But I get your concern- its a hard thing to pin down and everyone has a different definition. See Daniel VonRecklinghausen's quote below.

Define a “neutral” cable? How is that determined? Is it determined subjectively when listening to a cable in the system? And if so, what system? Is it determined by a suite of measurements? If so, what measurements?

A neutral cable is one that does not impose a coloration.

Its helpful to make recordings yourself and put them on LP and whatever other media so you have a useful tool for subjective observations since you were there at the recording.

One of our customers would measure distortion and bandwidth frequencies in the room rather that on the bench by using a microphone and analyzer. Although the mic certainly contributed to distortion, he used this for comparison purposes and was able to show what happened to the distortion when filter capacitors were replaced in the power supply of an amp with better quality parts. In this way he was able to correlate what he heard against what was also measurable.

Too often people think audible things aren't measurable because they limit themselves to individual components on a bench and/or are living their lives according to what was measurable back in the 1970s; measurement technology like so many other things has made tremendous strides since then! The tools are out there- all that is needed is a way to sort out how to use them and what to measure.

As Daniel VonRecklinghausen (HH Scott head engineer) once said: If it measures good and sounds bad, — it is bad. If it sounds good and measures bad, — you've measured the wrong thing.

 

[Eichenbaum]

Audiopax from Brazil invented the Timbre Lock. It allows you to fine-tune the synergy of your system without swapping cables.
I have the L50 Reference preamp, a new model, and the Timbre Lock truly works.

Audiopax Maggiore L50/M50 review!

Hi! Finally, the first review of the new Audiopax product line, the Maggiore L50 preamp and M50 monoblocs! http://highfidelity.pl/@main-628&lang=en Here's a nice quote from the review: "Performance of this set reminded me of that of the Naim Statement. Some differences were obvious; but so...

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[Ted Denney III]

A neutral cable is one that does not impose a coloration.

All cables have an accent or a voice— all. It’s a function of the electromagnetic transfer characteristics of all cables, none can be accomplished without some degree of coloration. The best cables move that bar higher, and the bar is constantly going higher, but there has never been an absolutely neutral cable, and likely there never will be.

 

[Atmasphere]

It’s a function of the electromagnetic transfer characteristics of all cables

True

none can be accomplished without some degree of coloration

False.

The best cables move that bar higher, and the bar is constantly going higher, but there has never been an absolutely neutral cable, and likely there never will be.

True. That is why I said earlier that no matter what cables you compare, if one is better than the other, both are wrong.

The only way off that while elephant cable merry go round is to run everything balanced and use equipment that supports all the balanced line standards, thus forcing cable neutrality. As I pointed out, the ways to do this have been know for about 70 years and isn't VooDoo.

 

[microstrip]

All cables have an accent or a voice— all. It’s a function of the electromagnetic transfer characteristics of all cables,

I loved the "electromagnetic transfer characteristic" - my toaster power cable will be proud of it - are you going to add Maxwell equations and quantum mechanics next time?

none can be accomplished without some degree of coloration.

Some has an ambiguous meaning - do you want to quantify it? Surely there is no perfect transference - some energy is absorbed in the process.

The best cables move that bar higher, and the bar is constantly going higher, but there has never been an absolutely neutral cable, and likely there never will be.

It seems to me you are considering that cables only transmit audio signals, ignoring broadband noise (environmental and supplied by the sender and the receiver) .

BTW, IMO "best" in the high-end is not forcefully neutral. But most people find comfortable calling neutral what they prefer.

 

[hopkins]

The only way off that while elephant cable merry go round is to run everything balanced and use equipment that supports all the balanced line standards, thus forcing cable neutrality. As I pointed out, the ways to do this have been know for about 70 years and isn't VooDoo.

How do you know that balanced cables are neutral?

 

[Atmasphere]

How do you know that balanced cables are neutral?

It helps to hear what the actual performance sounds like. Get a decent pair of mics (I use refurbished Neumann U67s) then listen to the mic feed of the actual live music. Then swap cables between the mics and mic preamps. In that situation the cable choice has never made a difference. Of course we've had some exotic cables in that situation for audition. I don't make these statements without some experience.

I've done a similar demo at customer's houses at the line level instead of microphone- the most dramatic was when the 'high end audio' cable cost $1000/foot. No difference.

The cables themselves are not neutral unless the equipment on either end forces that on them via the use of low impedances and making sure that ground (the shield) is ignored as well as noise picked up by the cable.

 

[hopkins]

It helps to hear what the actual performance sounds like. Get a decent pair of mics (I use refurbished Neumann U67s) then listen to the mic feed of the actual live music. Then swap cables between the mics and mic preamps. In that situation the cable choice has never made a difference. Of course we've had some exotic cables in that situation for audition. I don't make these statements without some experience.

I've done a similar demo at customer's houses at the line level instead of microphone- the most dramatic was when the 'high end audio' cable cost $1000/foot. No difference.

The cables themselves are not neutral unless the equipment on either end forces that on them via the use of low impedances and making sure that ground (the shield) is ignored as well as noise picked up by the cable.

I do not have good enough recording equipment to try, or expensive cables (moreover the only cable in my system is a speaker cable). If you are right, why are audio equipment not systematically run with balanced cables? Ignorance?

 

[Atmasphere]

I do not have good enough recording equipment to try, or expensive cables (moreover the only cable in my system is a speaker cable). If you are right, why are audio equipment not systematically run with balanced cables? Ignorance?

That is part of it.

In the old days, cost, since to do it with tubes you needed a good quality transformer for the 600 Ohm lines used.

These days balanced lines are used quite a lot more, but most of the time the standards are ignored, resulting in a loss of ground loop immunity and cable artifact immunity, as well as long runs aren't possible. I've seen some 'balanced line' products that had me shaking my head as it seemed clear the designer didn't know how balanced lines worked at all.

 

[microstrip]

Serious audiophiles do not buy neutral speakers, they do not buy neutral amplifiers, they do not buy neutral sources, why should we buy neutral cables?

When I owned the Marantz Project t1 https://www.hifinews.com/content/marantz-project-t-1-amplifier I bought a few UTC line transformers (UTC LS10x and LS151 types), and even using them to attack the Project T1 (it has a transformer input) there was a significant difference between balanced cables.

 

[Holmz]

Serious audiophiles do not buy neutral speakers, they do not buy neutral amplifiers, they do not buy neutral sources, why should we buy neutral cables?
…

This kind of sums up a lot.
Seems like, Audiophile == musical.

Hifi, or High fidelity == neutral.

Define a “neutral” cable? How is that determined? Is it determined subjectively when listening to a cable in the system? And if so, what system? Is it determined by a suite of measurements? If so, what measurements?

Why are you asking me?
You are the cable designer.

I thought that I was asking that question in response to @Slingblade’s mention of fusing connections back on post #99, and I used the term objectively on purpose, rather than subjective. With subjective we go down the rabbit hole of what we think is musical at the moment. I expect tubes to be somewhat of a consumable, but I would rather not treat cables and ICs as consumables to be replaced often.

…OK - I guess he made an integrated amp?

What do those fused connections look like?
What was the effective capacitance and inductance?

If one knew that, then would they have a way to describe which cable is objectively closest to a fused connection?

So it appears like you @Ted Denney III sort did a Greco-Roman reversal of my question back towards me…

But the question I still have is whether your cables (and maybe other cables) are designed to met certain electrical parameters, which you’ve referred to as “electromagnetic transfer characteristics” or whether they are designed by subjective listening. Here is what you wrote:

All cables have an accent or a voice— all. It’s a function of the electromagnetic transfer characteristics of all cables, none can be accomplished without some degree of coloration. The best cables move that bar higher, and the bar is constantly going higher, but there has never been an absolutely neutral cable, and likely there never will be.

 

[microstrip]

This kind of sums up a lot.
Seems like, Audiophile == musical.

I would add "individually musical or enjoyable"

Hifi, or High fidelity == neutral.

I would say neutral is "statistically musical or enjoyable" . We have good Hifi or High fidelity and very poor Hifi or High fidelity.

 

[mtemur]

These statements are also false. Neutix makes connectors as good or better than any RCA, IMO/IME.

If Neutrik is the best you heard you won’t understand why the below statement you replied is true.

The quality of the XLR contact is only a piece of metal and is of less quality than a good RCA connector.

 

[Atmasphere]

If Neutrik is the best you heard you won’t understand why the below statement you replied is true.

We've tried many different connectors over the last 40 years- some quite expensive. One was a copy of the old round Switchcraft stuff from the 1950s. None of them were any better than the Neutrik connectors.

At any rate a good XLR connector will mop the floor with any RCA made- a lot having to do with the simple fact that you can't get a cable with an RCA connector on it to be really neutral and musical. You can get it to be excellent but that isn't saying the same thing.

 

[microstrip]

We've tried many different connectors over the last 40 years- some quite expensive. One was a copy of the old round Switchcraft stuff from the 1950s. None of them were any better than the Neutrik connectors. (...)

Audiophiles should be happy to know that they can get them plated in silver or gold!

BTW, IMO the inexpensive Neutrik recessed RCA sockets are better that many others costing a lot more.

 

[DasguteOhr]

We've tried many different connectors over the last 40 years- some quite expensive. One was a copy of the old round Switchcraft stuff from the 1950s. None of them were any better than the Neutrik connectors.

At any rate a good XLR connector will mop the floor with any RCA made- a lot having to do with the simple fact that you can't get a cable with an RCA connector on it to be really neutral and musical. You can get it to be excellent but that isn't saying the same thing.

Not only xlr ,Speakon and Powercon are better than any IEC plug or speaker connector. That's what I call contact security. You can use them to lower your speakers and equipment from the first floor if you want.

 

[Holmz]

Not only xlr ,Speakon and Powercon are better than any IEC plug or speaker connector. That's what I call contact security. You can use them to lower your speakers and equipment from the first floor if you want.

People with speakers and systems where the costing is expressed with the exponent, and not the mantissa, would likely shun the SpeakOn. But they are ubiquitous in the pro-audio realm.
I cannot imagine any Shunita, Niagara, etc user even considering a PoweCon.

I actually have some power tools modified to use the PowerCon.
And Neutrik distributors seem to shy away from recommending them in anything but a chassis.But they seem like a great way to get power through a wooden floor.