Cables can make a huge difference...

[Holmz]

The 2nd part of the post you quoted has nothing to do with cables. It's just explaining how electromechanical feedback works in an audio system, so you can understand WHY we want to preserve as much resolution as possible.

IC cables make a large difference in resolution, they can preserve the information or smooth it over because of added colorations like warmth. They do little to participate in feedback, except produce triboelectric noise as a result of friction between the conductor and dielectric, which is not desirable, but also nowhere near the effect of a vacuum tube or a turntable.

I did explain what I meant by good and bad vibrations. Good vibrations lead to psychoacoustically correct feedback and bad ones do not. So when we test the effects of racks, footers, tube dampers, turntable platters and mats, adding weights, etc. all this is manipulating the electromechanical feedback mechanism of the system in order to make it psychoacoustically correct.

I also said that the result of good vibrations that create psychoacoustically correct feedback is the perception of timbre sounding more like it does in real life.

For example, the vocals I heard with the resonator in the horn (as detailed in the post you quoted) sounded clearer and more real, without it there was a dullness to the sound, and it sounded less like I'd expect vocals to sound like in real life. At the time of that particular trial, I was expecting the resonator to simply add coloration and take away from the reality of the vocals, but the result was quite surprising. The vocals sounded clearer and more real with the resonator! I forget the brand, but there have been several different products that attempt to store the speaker's energy and release it over time in order to enhance the reverb trails and make the sound more realistic. I have heard it really work, but I also think there is a possibility the resonator would result in additions that are not like we expect to hear, which would then make the sound seem more muddled.

In any case, if the goal is a 3-D immersive "you are there" soundstage, then commodity level IC cables will be a bottleneck, and psychoacoustically correct electromechanical feedback helps. We've already gone over the fact that recording and playback are not the same thing. Recording is an art, or at least a high-level craft, reproduction is simply retrieval of the recorded information. Both sides of the equation can be good or bad. The goal of playback is achieving the most fidelity to the recording as we can, hence the term "high fidelity", which has been maligned by those who are ignorant of these facts or have been exposed to HiFi systems they don't enjoy and feel are flawed. The thought that what's used to make the recording is "good enough" for playback shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the differences between the two endeavors.

Ok.

 

[Rensselaer]

These claims are part of the old, tired "Do cables make a difference" debate. This is beating a horse that's not just dead, it's a skeleton.

The unfortunate thing is there are TWO threads happening simultaneously here. Talk about cables, and then talk about "Do cables make a difference".

I regret engaging in the latter previously, it always leads to unending arguments, personal attacks and even defamation. I'd encourage everyone who actually wants to talk about cables to stop participating in it.

“Cables can make a huge difference” is the title of this thread, posted on the “general forum”.

Whenever anyone starts a thread on the general forum that appears to be making a statement of fact, in this case that cables can make a big difference, members will naturally question that premise “do cables actually make a big difference?

Your second sentence, “This is beating a horse that’s not just dead, it’s a skeleton”, implying that such questions have long ago been proven wrong, isn’t accurate. There have probably been more blind listening tests finding listeners unable to discern an improvement in sound with swapping to “better” cables than those where listeners can hear an improvement. So it seems as if it is in fact a legitimate question to ask and quite appropriate to discuss on the thread.

Your personal income stemming from selling cables suggests a reason for your personally wanting to dissuade such discussions. If you were confident in the ability of cables to obviously make a big difference you wouldn’t feel threatened and so appeal to anger and threats of lawsuits. To the contrary, if it was that obvious that cables will make a worthwhile investment, then anyone who argued the point would just be ignored as ill-informed.

 

[Al M.]

While I was always aware that signal cables can make a big difference, for the longest time I was not convinced that power cables do. A few years ago I even had a heated discussion with DaveC on my system thread about this (I still wish the discussion would have been more chill) , while I already had bought excellent signal cables from him that I still greatly enjoy (and my new speaker cables from him are excellent, too). Turns out, Dave was right on power cables and I was wrong. I have been eating crow many times over since my discovery of that fact.

What changed my mind were two things:

1) In a friend's high-resolution system I repeatedly heard clear differences between power cables, differences that made me scratch my head at the time.

2) A great technical explanation by Billinge on a thread that I started on the topic of power cables vs the cables in the walls:

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...cables-in-your-walls.29938/page-6#post-741196

Finally someone explained this. Shunyata have something on their website about the last few feet being the most important, but no explanation like this, and I always had scratched my head about theirs.

(For those interested in exploring the issue a bit more, Billinge had some interesting follow-up posts later in the thread that also cite other electrical engineers.)

***

The first power cable that I tried some three years ago was DaveC's Clear Bass cable, on my power amp. I couldn't believe how much of a difference it made, in particular with respect to silkiness of orchestral massed violins and general hardness of sound. It turned out that in prior iterations my system just had not been resolving enough when I had tried Dave's power cables at the time.

I ended up with three ZenWave PL-11 cables, on DAC, preamp and power amp, and ZenWave Clear Bass cables on everything else (see my signature). All that after systematically testing Dave's power cables one by one, in easy at-home trials courtesy of his policy.

I also bought a 6-way Furutech power distributor from Dave, after finding that it too made a large difference. The difference with my previous cheap distributor was so big that I could hear it right away at low volume while my system was just playing to warm up after the insertion of the Furutech! Another substantial amount of hardness was gone! (And bass was better too.) This experience during warm-up at low volume was "ridiculous" and exhilarating at the same time. Of course, I made sure that the finding held up upon critical examination at regular playback volumes, which it easily did.

***

So yeah, regardless of his commercial interests, DaveC is right about cables. BTW, in the meantime I have heard numerous comparisons of his cables with other cable brands, and I am still enormously satisfied with my choice of buying all my cables (except the digital ones) from him.

 

[Synaxis]

While I was always aware that signal cables can make a big difference, for the longest time I was not convinced that power cables do. A few years ago I even had a heated discussion with DaveC on my system thread about this (I still wish the discussion would have been more chill) , while I already had bought excellent signal cables from him that I still greatly enjoy (and my new speaker cables from him are excellent, too). Turns out, Dave was right on power cables and I was wrong. I have been eating crow many times over since my discovery of that fact.

What changed my mind were two things:

1) In a friend's high-resolution system I repeatedly heard clear differences between power cables, differences that made me scratch my head at the time.

2) A great technical explanation by Billinge on a thread that I started on the topic of power cables vs the cables in the walls:

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...cables-in-your-walls.29938/page-6#post-741196

Finally someone explained this. Shunyata have something on their website about the last few feet being the most important, but no explanation like this, and I always had scratched my head about theirs.

(For those interested in exploring the issue a bit more, Billinge had some interesting follow-up posts later in the thread that also cite other electrical engineers.)

***

The first power cable that I tried some three years ago was DaveC's Clear Bass cable, on my power amp. I couldn't believe how much of a difference it made, in particular with respect to silkiness of orchestral massed violins and general hardness of sound. It turned out that in prior iterations my system just had not been resolving enough when I had tried Dave's power cables at the time.

I ended up with three ZenWave PL-11 cables, on DAC, preamp and power amp, and ZenWave Clear Bass cables on everything else (see my signature). All that after systematically testing Dave's power cables one by one, in easy at-home trials courtesy of his policy.

I also bought a 6-way Furutech power distributor from Dave, after finding that it too made a large difference. The difference with my previous cheap distributor was so big that I could hear it right away at low volume while my system was just playing to warm up after the insertion of the Furutech! Another substantial amount of hardness was gone! (And bass was better too.) This experience during warm-up at low volume was "ridiculous" and exhilarating at the same time. Of course, I made sure that the finding held up upon critical examination at regular playback volumes, which it easily did.

***

So yeah, regardless of his commercial interests, DaveC is right about cables. BTW, in the meantime I have heard numerous comparisons of his cables with other cable brands, and I am still enormously satisfied with my choice of buying all my cables (except the digital ones) from him.

Very classy and stand-up post - well done!

 

[Al M.]

Very classy and stand-up post - well done!

Thank you!

 

[Rensselaer]

I too have Dave's power cords (3 different ones). I bought them after trying GutWire power cords in my system and sending those back (improved sound stage but blurred/softened details). I needed 9' lengths and Dave made them up for me. I am not unhappy with them, but I don't hear a big improvement in sound with them either. I did have an issue with Dave about some hook up wire he made for me that wasn't fit for purpose, but that is another issue.

I use Auditorium-23 speaker cables, Shindo interconnects and Duelund hook up wire so not a cable denier (despite my postings), but strongly assert that dissenting opinions must be allowed for fair and balanced discourse.

Just for giggles, here is an older review of what the author feels were the best 29 power cables at that time, ZenWave are included:
https://audiobacon.net/2019/08/17/27-audiophile-power-cables-reviewed/
I especially took note of his comments regarding "break-in"; "a few sounded very different after a few hundred hours, most never changed."

 

[DaveC]

Rensselaer's posts are a great example of what to ignore.

I only reply to counter the blatant lies and defamation that he's been perpetrating here. He lies about the power cables, in fact he praised them when he got them, then he changed his mind after being convinced to do so by former member DDK and his "Natural Sound" group. For some context on why he is here defaming me, the "Natural Sound" folks are very upset with WBF forum and it's owners/moderators because DDK left. They are here with the intent to do harm to this forum and people who they see as DDK's enemies, including myself. They are here in bad faith.

Here's a pic of the hook up wire I sent him. I showed him exactly what wire I'd be using and he knew exactly what he was ordering. He threw a fit when he couldn't fit the wire through a hole and didn't know what to do about it. He characterized this wire as "wildly inappropriate" previously. As you can see, it's simply a braided length of wire, Neotech BRDCC20, with a diameter similar to a typical mechanical pencil, shown for scale. This is fantastic wire! It's too bad he couldn't figure out how to make it work, but he knew exactly what he was ordering. Also, this was well over 5 years ago. He's here holding a grudge against me that's over half a decade old.

 

[Rensselaer]

Rensselaer's posts are a great example of what to ignore.

I only reply to counter the blatant lies and defamation that he's been perpetrating here. He lies about the power cables, in fact he praised them when he got them, then he changed his mind after being convinced to do so by former member DDK and his "Natural Sound" group. For some context on why he is here defaming me, the "Natural Sound" folks are very upset with WBF forum and it's owners/moderators because DDK left. They are here with the intent to do harm to this forum and people who they see as DDK's enemies, including myself. They are here in bad faith.

Here's a pic of the hook up wire I sent him. I showed him exactly what wire I'd be using and he knew exactly what he was ordering. He threw a fit when he couldn't fit the wire through a hole and didn't know what to do about it. He characterized this wire as "wildly inappropriate" previously. As you can see, it's simply a braided length of wire, Neotech BRDCC20, with a diameter similar to a typical mechanical pencil, shown for scale. This is fantastic wire! It's too bad he couldn't figure out how to make it work, but he knew exactly what he was ordering. Also, this was well over 5 years ago. He's here holding a grudge against me that's over half a decade old.

Well, not really Dave. Tell you what, I’ve a video on my YouTube channel that shows what wire I used and what you gave me (and they aren’t anything like this photo you provide). I will attach a link here if anyone is interested. Just to be clear, I told you that I was worried your wire was too heavy to be held by the Altec clips and you told me to remove them and attach screw down lugs, on vintage Altecs! You sent me mail saying you were going to sue me in the UK, that I would pay for your attorney, your holiday here and a huge amount in punitive damages…well, I have every email/communication between us and those crazy bulky cables you sent me so bring it on.

 

[Mr. Miyagi]

Well, not really Dave. Tell you what, I’ve a video on my YouTube channel that shows what wire I used and what you gave me (and they aren’t anything like this photo you provide). I will attach a link here if anyone is interested. Just to be clear, I told you that I was worried your wire was too heavy to be held by the Altec clips and you told me to remove them and attach screw down lugs, on vintage Altecs! You sent me mail saying you were going to sue me in the UK, that I would pay for your attorney, your holiday here and a huge amount in punitive damages…well, I have every email/communication between us and those crazy bulky cables you sent me so bring it on.

Is the sound gate for real? It’s a Kondo clone and the guy has mixed reviews - just curious if there is a definitive take on his amps ?

 

[treitz3]

@DaveC and @Rensselaer - you two need to stop the back and forth. There is obviously a disagreement between the two of you but it does not need to be aired publicly on this thread (or any other thread). Any further posts that concern this dispute will be removed.

The WBF will not be a place to air grievances towards another member. If you two have an issue with each other, deal with it privately and leave the WBF out of it.

Both of you, please consider this a formal warning.

Tom

 

[Rensselaer]

Is the sound gate for real? It’s a Kondo clone and the guy has mixed reviews - just curious if there is a definitive take on his amps ?

I get 50cycle hum from the power transformer over the speakers, which, I believe , muddies the bass some. Otherwise the sound is much more present and real than the Ayon Spitfire it replaced.

 

[audiopro92]

I too have Dave's power cords (3 different ones). I bought them after trying GutWire power cords in my system and sending those back (improved sound stage but blurred/softened details). I needed 9' lengths and Dave made them up for me. I am not unhappy with them, but I don't hear a big improvement in sound with them either. I did have an issue with Dave about some hook up wire he made for me that wasn't fit for purpose, but that is another issue.

I am not a cable denier (despite my postings), but strongly assert that dissenting opinions must be allowed for fair and balanced discourse.

Just for giggles, here is an older review of what the author feels were the best 29 power cables at that time, ZenWave are included:
https://audiobacon.net/2019/08/17/27-audiophile-power-cables-reviewed/
I especially took note of his comments regarding "break-in"; "a few sounded very different after a few hundred hours, most never changed."

Rensselaer's posts are a great example of what to ignore.

I only reply to counter the blatant lies and defamation that he's been perpetrating here. He lies about the power cables, in fact he praised them when he got them, then he changed his mind after being convinced to do so by former member DDK and his "Natural Sound" group. For some context on why he is here defaming me, the "Natural Sound" folks are very upset with WBF forum and it's owners/moderators because DDK left. They are here with the intent to do harm to this forum and people who they see as DDK's enemies, including myself. They are here in bad faith.

Here's a pic of the hook up wire I sent him. I showed him exactly what wire I'd be using and he knew exactly what he was ordering. He threw a fit when he couldn't fit the wire through a hole and didn't know what to do about it. He characterized this wire as "wildly inappropriate" previously. As you can see, it's simply a braided length of wire, Neotech BRDCC20, with a diameter similar to a typical mechanical pencil, shown for scale. This is fantastic wire! It's too bad he couldn't figure out how to make it work, but he knew exactly what he was ordering. Also, this was well over 5 years ago. He's here holding a grudge against me that's over half a decade old.

Looks like a solid effort.

"Rensselaer's posts are a great example of what to ignore."

Classy.

I've had the same kind of experience. A seller complaining a year later after I sold them nearly-brand new audio equipment and a powerful laptop. The problem? They just thought I charged too much, but I actually sold them both electronics for less money than MSRP. Constantly harassing me asking for "some" of the money back. Threated to write me a bad review on facebook market-place "so everyone could see", so I had to take that account down and create a new one.

I hate to say it, but people who are going to try and disparage business owners or one-off sellers on public forums and via reviews (including but limited to audio) need to grow up and start behaving like adults. And too bad for them. In reality, this is free marketing and some back and forth might peak the interest of someone who has a specific need, such as cables in this case. That's a good thing in my books.

I've had my fair share of this kind of problem with sellers which is why if I'm selling something, I'd rather ship overseas than sell local. It only seems to happen with people here in North America.... not Europe or Asia. But that's just my experience...

 

[audiopro92]

Is the sound gate for real? It’s a Kondo clone and the guy has mixed reviews - just curious if there is a definitive take on his amps ?

I'm mostly responding because of your name and photo. Rather cool.

I'd like to chime in and suggest - anything with "clone" on it is probably going to be a mixed-bag with cost savings we don't want in production. I once went on a shopping spree and bought quite a few replica amplifiers of the AAA variety. They turned out to sound radically different from the originals. Not in a good way...

 

[PeterA]

Rensselaer's posts are a great example of what to ignore.

I only reply to counter the blatant lies and defamation that he's been perpetrating here. He lies about the power cables, in fact he praised them when he got them, then he changed his mind after being convinced to do so by former member DDK and his "Natural Sound" group. For some context on why he is here defaming me, the "Natural Sound" folks are very upset with WBF forum and it's owners/moderators because DDK left. They are here with the intent to do harm to this forum and people who they see as DDK's enemies, including myself. They are here in bad faith.

Talk about defamation! This is complete and utter nonsense.

 

[djsina2]

Is the sound gate for real? It’s a Kondo clone and the guy has mixed reviews - just curious if there is a definitive take on his amps ?

I had a PX25 amp from him that sounded great and it was quite inexpensive. Build quality on the inside is incredibly well done and neat, better than most manufacturers I’ve seen. The exterior fit and finish is a bit DIY but difficult to judge at his prices.

 

[plasmod3]

popcorn guys - this is most entertaining

 

[Al M.]

It definitely is. But while we can all have our thoughts on the issue (I assume we agree which one ) I guess there's no point in further inflaming it. Moderator warnings were already given in this thread.

 

[PeterA]

I do not understand the cable designer calling his critics “cable deniers”. We all must choose cables for our systems and we must use them for the systems to function and play music. It makes no sense. I agree with the title: cables can make a huge difference.

 

[SCAudiophile]

PeterA, you nailed it!

 

[Atmasphere]

Gold plating is nice to reduce oxidation, but often is so thin that it is worn away after a connection or two, and/or allows oxidation to occur naturally through pinholes in the very thin plating. I do think cable construction is important as far as connectors and such, but question if the difference between 0.99 and 0.999999 conductor purity is audible.

I've been told more than once or twice by actual wire producers (not the ones that sell it, but the ones that actually make it) that '6 nines' copper is mythological. Put plainly it does not exist and is entirely, 100%, marketing.

That is the harsh truth. I didn't like it when I heard this too (I spent a good deal of money on that too). So it would be unsurprising that there's no audible difference, on account of the wire that is honestly 0.99 pure as opposed to the one marketed as 0.999999 pure are are the same thing.

FWIW dept.: 'oxygen free copper' wire (0.99%) was developed for generators, not audio. Its more flexible so holds up better for the brushes.