Best Speaker for 100k

[DaveC]

if you listen to the main towers by themselves on about two thirds of musical selections there is something noticeably missing. but one third sounds about right. the most amazing thing is how much better the mids and highs are with the bass towers turned on. which tells us just how poor our intuition about how things likely work is.

For sure! Extended bass makes your hearing more sensitive to the highest frequencies too, and makes it much more obvious if they're rolled off and vice versa. So you can make a seemingly balanced sounding speaker without full bass extension but the highs need to be rolled off in addition. That's what Bose was good at... understanding this stuff and using it to cut corners. I do think you're right that much of this kind of psychoacoustics are not widely understood though.



andromeda, check out the Acoustic Elegance TD15 line of drivers, they are treated paper and are amazing. I am using the 15H+, which might not be on their current website but you can google it for information from the old site. It's one of the best woofers I've ever heard. Distortion is very low according both my ears and measurements. It's so low distortion it takes a few minutes for the brain to adjust. I'm using it in a 5 cuft ported cab tuned in the low 20 Hz range.

 

[microstrip]

For sure! Extended bass makes your hearing more sensitive to the highest frequencies too, and makes it much more obvious if they're rolled off and vice versa. So you can make a seemingly balanced sounding speaker without full bass extension but the highs need to be rolled off in addition. That's what Bose was good at... understanding this stuff and using it to cut corners. I do think you're right that much of this kind of psychoacoustics are not widely understood though. (...)

This subject was also referred by Peter Walker, of Quad Acoustics, and debated in Wireless World in the 70's.

 

[microstrip]

(...) andromeda, check out the Acoustic Elegance TD15 line of drivers, they are treated paper and are amazing. I am using the 15H+, which might not be on their current website but you can google it for information from the old site. It's one of the best woofers I've ever heard. Distortion is very low according both my ears and measurements. It's so low distortion it takes a few minutes for the brain to adjust. I'm using it in a 5 cuft ported cab tuned in the low 20 Hz range.

One of the projects in my long list of "thinks to do when I have significant free time" is building two dipole subwoofers using eight Acoustic Elegance TD15 woofers in two column arrays ...

 

[Barry]

One of the projects in my long list of "thinks to do when I have significant free time" is building two dipole subwoofers using eight Acoustic Elegance TD15 woofers in two column arrays ...

Maybe a little off topic, but Micro, what are the audible advantages of dipole subwoofers when used with dipole panel speakers? I understand the radiation patterns are the same but how significant is it?

 

[microstrip]

Maybe a little off topic, but Micro, what are the audible advantages of dipole subwoofers when used with dipole panel speakers? I understand the radiation patterns are the same but how significant is it?

My experience with subs is limited, but until now I failed adding subs to my Soundlabs - nice measurements using up to four subs with a Berhinger BCX 2496, but very poor subjective quality.

However, decades ago when a friend decided to part with his Mark Levinson HQD system, I got the two Hartely 24" woofers and build a pair of dipole subs for the ESL57's. They blended perfectly using a Janis crossover - or at less it is what I remember now! So I would love to repeat the experience. Also, for some time Soundlab manufactured the B1 electrostatic dual membrane subwoofer, and some people who listened to it long ago told me it was a memorable experience. Enough to trigger my curiosity - although perhaps one of those summer days I will try the Audio Kinesis recipe using four Martin Logan woofers.

 

[DaveC]

My experience with subs is limited, but until now I failed adding subs to my Soundlabs - nice measurements using up to four subs with a Berhinger BCX 2496, but very poor subjective quality.

However, decades ago when a friend decided to part with his Mark Levinson HQD system, I got the two Hartely 24" woofers and build a pair of dipole subs for the ESL57's. They blended perfectly using a Janis crossover - or at less it is what I remember now! So I would love to repeat the experience. Also, for some time Soundlab manufactured the B1 electrostatic dual membrane subwoofer, and some people who listened to it long ago told me it was a memorable experience. Enough to trigger my curiosity - although perhaps one of those summer days I will try the Audio Kinesis recipe using four Martin Logan woofers.

You need a woofer with a strong motor and low inductance to keep up, the 15H+ does this very well, it keeps up with my horn midrange and blends seamlessly. The 15M is much more efficient but the cone is not as stiff and it has that subjectively warm vintage bass sound, but is significantly better than a JBL 2226 imo.

Personally, I don't like dipole bass as I feel it lacks impact but others have had good luck with a SLOB, or slot-loaded open-baffle... this might work out for you but I'd avoid a woofer on a flat open baffle.

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . . dipole subwoofers using eight Acoustic Elegance TD15 woofers in two column arrays ...

That works for me, microstrip!

For a state-of-the-art speaker I think a tower of fast woofers in a vertical array (e.g., Genesis 1.2 and 2.2, Gryphon Pendragon, SoulSonic Impulse, Perfect8 The Force, Evolution Acoustics MM7, Acapella Apollon, Goebel Epoque Baforce) (or a tall system with a big woofer at the top and at the bottom of the cabinet (e.g., Rockport Arrakis and Von Schweikert VR-11SE Mk. II)) is the ideal answer to most, if not all, low frequency augmentation questions.

 

[tunes]

I'd put the verity lohengrin 2S in the mix as well.

 

[ddk]

My experience with subs is limited, but until now I failed adding subs to my Soundlabs - nice measurements using up to four subs with a Berhinger BCX 2496, but very poor subjective quality.

However, decades ago when a friend decided to part with his Mark Levinson HQD system, I got the two Hartely 24" woofers and build a pair of dipole subs for the ESL57's. They blended perfectly using a Janis crossover - or at less it is what I remember now! So I would love to repeat the experience. Also, for some time Soundlab manufactured the B1 electrostatic dual membrane subwoofer, and some people who listened to it long ago told me it was a memorable experience. Enough to trigger my curiosity - although perhaps one of those summer days I will try the Audio Kinesis recipe using four Martin Logan woofers.

The B1 is one of the best and most natural sounding subwoofers I ever heard Micro, bonus for you is relatively straightforward integration with your A1s! FYI Soundlab still makes the B1. Check out the old Celestion System 6000 subs if you're looking for dipole subs, they're excellent.

We all have different ideas about subs and their function, many people like to hear their subs and enjoy the "wack" or other auditory experience they can provide but I'm the opposite, I don't want to notice them at all. I don't like it when subs make their presence known, derails the illusion of reality for me. Full integration with the speakers is more important to me than getting the lowest possible notes reproduced, goal for me is not to know that there subs in the system and notice the bass anymore than you would with the main speaker.

david

 

[Steve williams]

but I'm the opposite, I don't want to notice them at all. I don't like it when subs make their presence known, derails the illusion of reality for me. Full integration with the speakers is more important to me than getting the lowest possible notes reproduced, goal for me is not to know that there subs in the system and notice the bass anymore than you would with the main speaker.

I agree

 

[Ron Resnick]

I agree, too.

 

[microstrip]

The B1 is one of the best and most natural sounding subwoofers I ever heard Micro, bonus for you is relatively straightforward integration with your A1s! FYI Soundlab still makes the B1. Check out the old Celestion System 6000 subs if you're looking for dipole subs, they're excellent.

We all have different ideas about subs and their function, many people like to hear their subs and enjoy the "wack" or other auditory experience they can provide but I'm the opposite, I don't want to notice them at all. I don't like it when subs make their presence known, derails the illusion of reality for me. Full integration with the speakers is more important to me than getting the lowest possible notes reproduced, goal for me is not to know that there subs in the system and notice the bass anymore than you would with the main speaker.

david

Yes, Soundlab still manufactures the B1, but as far as I know, not the dual membrane version anymore. Long ago I could get locally a faulty B1 just for the cost of shipping and I had to say no just because I did not have the space to store it.

Anyway I have one pair of the old A4 and one pair of A2x needing new diaphragms - very easy to rebuilt if I manage to get a low resitivity coating - their bass panels could become excellent subs. One more project for the long list ...

And yes, the Cellestion 6000 bass quality was great - but as far as I remember the high pass section of the crossover muddied the sound in my system. My ESL63 looked very strange on top of them! Curiously the old 6000s I have owned are now in the hands of the current owner of the B1 - he is an avid and passionate audio collector!

 

[andromedaaudio]

Hard paper pulp flexes to much imo , especially for electronic music but also orchestra crescendos for example
I like to listen house and watch movies like HEAT , i want my gunshots crisp and snappy , i did try it though

 

[Geardaddy]

"I am no audio sage....just a rube who has made a litany of mistakes (in the context of the usual audiophile arrogance of course)"....

Good Morning! So have I, trust me when I tell you that! It's amazing the ups, downs and lateral-moves in this hobby/obsession.

We are right on the border of Greenville & Greer off Exit 54 on 85 South,....not to far from CLT at all....Mmmmm, time for some listening!
Trying to put something together with 1-2 others from Rock Hill/CLT area,....you in?

Sure. That would be fun. It all depends on when.

 

[ddk]

Yes, Soundlab still manufactures the B1, but as far as I know, not the dual membrane version anymore. Long ago I could get locally a faulty B1 just for the cost of shipping and I had to say no just because I did not have the space to store it.

Anyway I have one pair of the old A4 and one pair of A2x needing new diaphragms - very easy to rebuilt if I manage to get a low resitivity coating - their bass panels could become excellent subs. One more project for the long list ...

And yes, the Cellestion 6000 bass quality was great - but as far as I remember the high pass section of the crossover muddied the sound in my system. My ESL63 looked very strange on top of them! Curiously the old 6000s I have owned are now in the hands of the current owner of the B1 - he is an avid and passionate audio collector!

Best way is to drive your speakers directly full range and only use the low pass section of the xover for the subs.

david

 

[pjwd]

Hi andromeda - just wondering what alternative drivers you would suggest for dipole in the 15 - 18" size
Thanks
Phil

 

[andromedaaudio]

Dipole ???
Never heard good dipole bass yet , open baffle designs have acoustic shortcut so the pressure against the membrane is different then a closed box or bass reflex system .
In a dipole system the risk of flexing the membrane is reduced because there is no increased box pressure working against the membrane.
One reason for me to like bass reflex is that the air can somewhat escape in or out of the box when the membrane is moving back wards /forwards .
Probably the only stiff 15 inch woofer i know of ( never used it because of low eff. and not the lowest res freq ) is the one produced by audiotechnology 15 inch sandwich cone , 2 layers of carbon fibre and paper in between (nowadays before it was a polymere cone iirc ), used in the arrakis iirc .
http://www.audiotechnology.dk/iz.asp?id=4|a|939|||.
The larger the woofer the more it has a chance to flex against the air it has to move , for me the 12 inch eton combined with the 11 inch works fine , seems to me one has to use multiple large woofers in a dipole system to get somewhat of a pressure built , not my thing personally


Ps . Actually it might be a contender to use since it seems to have 94db eff these days (flex units ) , last time i looked it had some sort off polymere membrane material with a much lower eff, 86 - 87 db or something like that , according to the current specs 94 db , 22 hz res freq.
But a 15 inch woofer needs a larger volume , and a bigger housing brings more cost logistics etc, etc ....

 

[bonzo75]

Dipole ???
Never heard good dipole bass yet , open baffle designs have acoustic shortcut so the pressure against the membrane is different then a closed box or bass reflex system .
In a dipole system the risk of flexing the membrane is reduced because there is no increased box pressure working against the membrane.
One reason for me to like bass reflex is that the air can somewhat escape in or out of the box when the membrane is moving back wards /forwards .
Probably the only stiff 15 inch woofer i know of ( never used it because of low eff. and not the lowest res freq ) is the one produced by audiotechnology 15 inch sandwich cone , 2 layers of carbon fibre and paper in between , used in the arrakis iirc .
http://www.audiotechnology.dk/iz.asp?id=4|a|939|||.
The larger the woofer the more it has a chance to flex against the air it has to move , for me the 12 inch eton combined with the 11 inch works fine , seems to me one has to use multiple large woofers in a dipole system to get somewhat of a pressure built , not my thing personally


Ps . actually it might be a contender to use since it seems to have 94db eff these days last time i looked it had a some sort off polymere membrane material with a much lower eff 86 - 87 db or something like that , according to the current specs 94 db , 22 hz res freq

Have you heard Apogee Grands/Full Ranges?

 

[andromedaaudio]

No i dont think so

 

[DaveC]

Dipole ???
Never heard good dipole bass yet...

+1, I say this all the time, I have no idea how people put up with dipole bass, it's just bad imo.

+1 on the Audiotechnology woofer too, at the last RMAF the speaker in one of the rooms I had gear in (Vapor Audio Perfect Storm) used this woofer in a transmission line and it was excellent, but the Acoustic Elegance TD15H+ I'm using is as good for half the cash imo. BTW... this woofer measures far lower distortion vs many hard-coned woofers...

pjwd, the Kyron speakers use Acoustic Elegance dipole woofers: http://kyronaudio.com.au/#!home_layout_1.html Personally, I don't think you'll do much better regardless of the price of the driver.