best thing i have read in a very long time....

[facten]

I don't know that I would go as far as saying it is destroying society but I completely agree that young people don't realize the benefit from working close to someone with experience and how much they can learn. You are not going to fully develop in your profession working by yourself and staring at a video screen all day. Some of the best lessons I learned and taught were done "at the water cooler" or just by having a 5 minute conversation in person.

Having said that, we are still in a transition period as we emerge from the pandemic. It will take 2-3 years for a new steady state to emerge. This will likely be a hybrid of the old way where people aren't in the office or the new way of being at home 5 days per week.

Agree 100% with your first paragraph. And aside from learning the nuances of the job, there is so much else to learn from directly interacting with people of other disciplines within the business, directly interacting with people at various management levels , watching styles of interaction , getting firsthand timely feedback and coaching, working on stretch assignments outside your comfort zone , etc. You don't acquire important knowledge in a vacuum

 

[Elliot G.]

that guy Musk.....



the concept of remote work is destroying society from the inside out. not by itself, but a significant part of it.

if this is too political and mods delete it, so be it.

I think the internet as a whole led to the breakdown of our personal relationships along with the skills to deal with others. IMO it has multiplied the frustration and isolation of our youth and many others in society. It is hard to ignore all the bad that has come from this. I don't want to get political but IMO it has accelerated dramatically the Tribal state we now exist in.

 

[Macattack]

Agree 100% with your first paragraph. And aside from learning the nuances of the job, there is so much else to learn from directly interacting with people of other disciplines within the business, directly interacting with people at various management levels , watching styles of interaction , getting firsthand timely feedback and coaching, working on stretch assignments outside your comfort zone , etc. You don't acquire important knowledge in a vacuum

Right on. You hit the mail on the head. I would build on your points only to say that I believe there may be a ‘reset’ where many jobs do in fact, return to the office, whereas others may lend themselves to working form home.

I am thinking about young engineers starting out in a chemical company. There is no way they can become fully functional by sitting at home and reading company documents. But experienced accountants can almost certainly work from home. The downside being they may grow out of touch with what the company is trying to do and miss the camaraderie.

It’s a new world and some of us old farts are best out of it.

 

[facten]

Right on. You hit the mail on the head. I would build on your points only to say that I believe there may be a ‘reset’ where many jobs do in fact, return to the office, whereas others may lend themselves to working form home.

I am thinking about young engineers starting out on a chemical company. There is no way they can become fully functional by sitting at home and reading company documents. But experienced accountants, they can almost certainly work from home. The downside being they may grow out of touch with what the company os trying to do.

It’s a new world and some of us old farts are best out of it.

My son is 26 , passed 3 financial security license exams and worked from home for a year or so in an entry level position with a brokerage firm. He found it very frustrating not having other people to directly interact with, and working , sleeping , eating in the same place day in and day out. With no plan in sight to be in an office he decided to leave and moved to a commercial loan position at a bank that is back in the office. He seems a lot happier

 

[morricab]

that guy Musk.....



the concept of remote work is destroying society from the inside out. not by itself, but a significant part of it.

if this is too political and mods delete it, so be it.

I started back 2-3 days a week for just that reason. I for one am in total agreement with your statement.

 

[morricab]

Apprenticeship was such a cogent wonderful system. My Uncle, (now in his early 90's, and still tinkering in his garage) and his son have been life-long engineers in the aerospace industry. The idea that they could do what they do (did) without daily cooperative/interactive work and years of apprenticeship is unthinkable. My cousin is working on the Bezos rocket. Do you think he confers with his Dad and a group of others who came before him after all of these years...you bet.

I learned machining, both manual and CNC, from guys who were among the last of their kind in the US at least. They had all apprenticed and moved from journeymen to master craftsmen and wound up as machinists at the University of California Riverside Chemistry and Physics machine shops. Because of them I gained invaluable practical knowledge that I still apply to this day…

 

[PeterA]

Great thread topic Mike. I agree with you. Related to the work at home phenomenon is the remote learning mandate imposed by bureaucrats and school administrators on our children. What a disaster. Poor science, poor policy. I only hope we look back at the terrible handling of this and learn something for the next time. The disastrous consequences will not be fully known for a while.

 

[BlueFox]

Some people having the ability to work from home, and the past remote school exercises are two entirely different and unrelated activities. I retired in 2019 as a Software Engineer, and had worked from home for years, usually on Friday.

 

[ddk]

… I only hope we look back at the terrible handling of this and learn something for the next time.

Don’t forget the other side also learnt some lessons for their next assault on our lives too!

david

 

[Folsom]

Seems simple that employers could offer both options. Let the worker choose. But right now they're being weird and trying to make decisions for everyone at the same time. Even worse people that want to work in office are not able to often due to dumb policy for ineffectual reasons... or to wear ineffectual useless PPE... Going back to work isn't going back if there are a bunch of prerequisites - that isn't what people want.

 

[dminches]

Seems simple that employers could offer both options. Let the worker choose. But right now they're being weird and trying to make decisions for everyone at the same time. Even worse people that want to work in office are not able to often due to dumb policy for ineffectual reasons... or to wear ineffectual useless PPE... Going back to work isn't going back if there are a bunch of prerequisites - that isn't what people want.

You say this as though this isn't happening. It is. All my kids, nieces and nephews have returned to their offices and have the option of how many days to come in. In all these cases no masks are required (not going to argue about them being ineffectual since no one fully knows their value in preventing disease spread).

Having said that, companies have the right to make their own rules. If employees don't like it they can quit and work elsewhere. Given the vast number of open jobs in the US I guess people are deciding to stick with it.

 

[Leekg]

Don’t forget the other side also learnt some lessons for their next assault on our lives too!

david

"Other side"? "Next assault"?

What's the topic here? Want to say it out loud so we know what we're dealing with?

 

[fbhifi]

Excellent topic Mike, Thanks for presenting it. The world, business or otherwise, is always evolving- never standing still. I think that younger, less experienced employees, in any business, greatly benefit from in office time and interactions. Some may be able to graduate to working remotely and be equally or more productive in that environment. A majority would likely better serve their careers and their employers interests by continuing to come into the office.

 

[Alrainbow]

I have never worked from home as my company is manual labor. im not against work at home unless it’s the workers choice an must be the decider
if we step back a bit we have been told lie after lie there is no real truth I feel. rules we are imposed of are very often not based science. one thing this entire issue has made us be even more divided as humanity
if musk feels we must go back
it’s for benefit to all not just him. Now this is my view and I’m not saying anyone who thinks or feels differently is wrong.
this is a wonderful topic and little to do with Covid I feel. It simple puts a light on how we have evolved
I mostly work from one of my homes now not because of fear but it’s how I feel at this point in my life.
i work way too many hours because of working from home

 

[Alrainbow]

Actually, with a near full employment labor market, employees have increasing say about who they work for and how they work. Makes many industries (like my industry of agriculture) nervous when they don't hold all the marbles. We all love the free market until it comes to labor.

I’m very in disagreement in your view. full employment lol.
many can’t find workers where did they go ?
labor is not too hard of certain types but skilled of varying types is not.

 

[astrotoy]

Obviously, there is work that requires people to be at a location. Manufacturing is clearly one. What I have found is that humans are by nature social animals. Very few do well in social isolation. This is one of the reasons that the most severe punishment in a prison is solitary confinement.

Larry

 

[Leekg]

I’m very in disagreement in your view. full employment lol.
many can’t find workers where did they go ?
labor is not too hard of certain types but skilled of varying types is not.

Good points. I use full employment to describe an environment where everyone who wants to (and can) work is doing so. If jobs remain unfilled there's either of shortage of workers (skills, education, available population) for those jobs or the jobs do not pay enough to pull workers off the sidelines.

Where'd they go? COVID deaths and long COVID, baby boomer retirements, better jobs, higher paying jobs, staying home with elders or kids, immigration and international travel restrictions.

 

[oldhvymec]

I just talked to a younger (still working) heavy duty mechanic/welder. Everybody is looking for mechanics and one company I know of is down 30-40% on mechanics. Skilled labor and "STOOP" labor is just as hard. We all have broken backs, necks, elbows, shoulders, knees, hips and of course HANDS.

I had to live in a gym for 35 years to be able to do my job. A 110lb flushing bell with one arm and bolt it up with the other hand is not easy at 60 years old, standing in 12" of wet grout, with rotary drifters hammering away at 110-130db all around you. Labors are GODS, well maybe gods .

Musk was simply saying, get off your dead A$$ it's time to go back to work.. I agree.

Social Security is still closed, 2 years. Do you really think those employees are working at home? The crap that went on in the name of Covid in the private sector vs the government welfare system is completely different. The government welfare employee system has no one to account to. Just their supervisor who did the same thing their supervisor did. Danville CA. Retired Fire Chief. 20.5k a month retirement..

I think that is more than a senator makes...

I know I worked harder than ANY of them ever did every day, not when the house burnt down. 20.5k a MONTH. I use to be a Hot Shot mechanic as a kid.. Putting out fire hot shots... You know what they get paid? Not near enough.. I kept pumps running in the Sierra foot hills when wild fires broke out.

If labors were paid what they were worth, Labors would live in 90210, not mowing their lawns. I can count beans, TOO if that counts.. IF labors were taken care of in the US there would be more of them. They are NOT.. Very simple.. Besides it's easier to steal. There is no consequence, why work?

Musk for Emperor. In the republic of California.

Speaking of Sierra foot hills, Pelosi and Feinstein. I remember when she was the Mayor of SF (I think) 70s. Add Uncle Joe, Geritol has its work cut out.

Regards

 

[KeithR]

Not sure what this post really means. Funny, I haven’t negotiated a car purchase in person in 20 years. That blasted electronic mail just ruining things! Maybe we should go back to suits 5 days a week too like the “ good ole days”.

Hybrid work models are excellent for middle aged families. many people already travel for business so aren’t in 5 days a week anyways. Things change and we adapt. Issues will be resolved as they appear.

 

[Folsom]

Not sure what this post really means. Funny, I haven’t negotiated a car purchase in person in 20 years. That blasted electronic mail just ruining things! Maybe we should go back to suits 5 days a week too like the “ good ole days”.

Hybrid work models are excellent for middle aged families. many people already travel for business so aren’t in 5 days a week anyways.

Are you proposing Madmen style working? Sounds good to me.