Brand Loyalty
- Thread starter Bruce B
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I was a rather loyal Mark Levinson (Madrigal Labs) fan back in the 90's early 2000's. I still have No.'s 27.5, 38 and 380S sitting on the sidelines. Once Harmon took over and refused to service Madrigal Levinson, I was done with them and had no interest in hearing any of the new Levinson products. This is my second pair of WA speakers. I broke my cherry with W/P 8's and have had nothing but great experiences with WA speakers. Pass Labs is another company that I plan on being loyal to. The dealer, RenoHiFi has a lot to do with that. They have always taken care of me and offered fair trade in value for component upgrades.
There is one Harley I like. The V-rod, mostly due to the fact that Porsche co-designed/engineered that motor. I haven't driven anything but Porsche since my first Cayenne in 2003. I guess I am brand loyal.
There is one Harley I like. The V-rod, mostly due to the fact that Porsche co-designed/engineered that motor. I haven't driven anything but Porsche since my first Cayenne in 2003. I guess I am brand loyal.
Brand loyalty is something that I believe most a'philes are very fickle about. When they believe that the toast of the day ( that they have bought into) is the best, well then they are loyal to that brand. However, as soon as they happen to hear about something else that either gets a rave review, or they happen to hear something for themselves that is superior...well off they go.
So I will ask this question of all of the Wilson fanboys and the Magico fanboys on this site.....
How quickly do you hit the A'gon button when speaker x (not a Wilson or Magico product) comes along and you happen to think it wiped the floor with your current rave?
So I will ask this question of all of the Wilson fanboys and the Magico fanboys on this site.....
How quickly do you hit the A'gon button when speaker x (not a Wilson or Magico product) comes along and you happen to think it wiped the floor with your current rave?
Speaking for myself...I don't think there are any speakers that wipe the floor of my choice of speakers. Are there better ? he'll ya...but not too many.
I am too fickled. Different brands offer variety of strong suite and weakness and different house sound. Since I have not yet found a single equipment or brand that is totally better than the competitors, I don't like to limit myself to just one brand. Going up the chain in a brand, you tend to get more of the same thing, may be a bit more refinement, extension, power or whatever whereas you will usually get more significant change (not always for the better but that is a lesson one has to learn and part of the fun). For example, amp wise, I went from B&K, Krell, BAT, back to Krell, Jadis, ASR, Lamm to Ayon. Each change gives me a better appreciation for what I had and what I just bought. I am not sure if I would appreciate and experience as much if I went from little Krell to big Krell and all the various Krells in between without experiencing a few different tubes, hybrid and other SS design. After saying that though, if the company treat me right (or dealer for that matter), if I have an itch to upgrade, they would be the name at the top of the list of equipments to consider but that's as far as I would go for brand royalty.
Brand loyalty also means synergy. A Pass XS pre will sound best with the Pass XS amps. Just one example.
Bruce,
Being a fanboy is not about lying. It's about twisting the truth to make up your own "reality", such as you did, raising David Wilson to the pantheon of geniuses, which he clearly is not. A marketing genius, perhaps.
Apple fanboys see no wrong, same as Wilson fanboys see no wrong (or defects) in their brand and/or product. And they twist reality to suit that "vision" of perfection.
The only parallel that can be made between Apple and WA is that both are polarising brands, but then, so is Magico. See our own user caesar here, for instance, who takes every opportunity to knock the brand down. Or Keith, who does the same with Apple.
I also agree that you only get to be a polarising brand by the strenght of your own brand, either by having an exceptional, technically sound product, or by marketing it efficiently, or both, like Apple does.
DaveyF,
Not everybody is as fickle as that. Brand loyalty has that power. Not every audiophile is out there looking for the absolute best performance. The brand image comes into play here, and they're happy with the level of performance they get, with the brand that gives them the warm fuzzies
alexandre
Being a fanboy is not about lying. It's about twisting the truth to make up your own "reality", such as you did, raising David Wilson to the pantheon of geniuses, which he clearly is not. A marketing genius, perhaps.
Apple fanboys see no wrong, same as Wilson fanboys see no wrong (or defects) in their brand and/or product. And they twist reality to suit that "vision" of perfection.
The only parallel that can be made between Apple and WA is that both are polarising brands, but then, so is Magico. See our own user caesar here, for instance, who takes every opportunity to knock the brand down. Or Keith, who does the same with Apple.
I also agree that you only get to be a polarising brand by the strenght of your own brand, either by having an exceptional, technically sound product, or by marketing it efficiently, or both, like Apple does.
DaveyF,
Not everybody is as fickle as that. Brand loyalty has that power. Not every audiophile is out there looking for the absolute best performance. The brand image comes into play here, and they're happy with the level of performance they get, with the brand that gives them the warm fuzzies
alexandre
I think that what Bruce has noted might be true for Baby Boomers but newer Generation X and Millennials groups might not be as brand loyal as the Baby Boomers. And then you have to throw in mobility of these two generations. http://www.forbes.com/sites/marketshare/2013/01/07/is-brand-loyalty-dying-a-slow-and-painful-death/
As in the case using the example Bruce used, Wilson/Magico buying a lifestyle maybe for the Baby Boomers who can actually afford those speakers but these new generations well, they are looking for deals and having a relationship with a dealer or manufacturers isn't their objective, price and then the bang for the buck is unless mommy and daddy buy it for them...
Brand loyalty is built on shared values an interesting find in this article https://www.helpscout.net/blog/brand-loyalty/
As in the case using the example Bruce used, Wilson/Magico buying a lifestyle maybe for the Baby Boomers who can actually afford those speakers but these new generations well, they are looking for deals and having a relationship with a dealer or manufacturers isn't their objective, price and then the bang for the buck is unless mommy and daddy buy it for them...
Brand loyalty is built on shared values an interesting find in this article https://www.helpscout.net/blog/brand-loyalty/
Surely. Part of the Wilson Audio success was due to choosing the proper partners to promote their speakers. These partners then also found that they could also take benefit from the association.
Times are changing, but it is good to remember what outsiders thought a decade ago: http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fsb/fsb_archive/2003/07/01/347339/index.htm. This type of article suggests and creates strong brand loyalty.
I bought the Wilson T-Shirt, Golf Shirt, oh and the speakers (Alexia's). Does that make me brand loyal? Maybe. There are only a handful of companies that can truly produce an ecosystem of brand loyalty, whereby they produce all or most of the components needed in a system. Wilson produces speakers and subs. Magico produces speakers and subs. But neither produces electronics (amp, preamp, sources, etc.) Neither also produces cables, stands, etc.
When you compare high end audio to Apple, you need to look at companies offering an entire ecosystem of products. This, to me, is what truly creates brand loyalty.
McIntosh for example, produces speakers, electronics, cables and pretty much everything you need to be brand loyal and live within their ecosystem.
Raidho is getting there. They produce speakers (Raidho), cables (Ansuz), electrical and mechanical grounding devices (Ansuz), stands (Ansuz), etc. and electronics are rumored.
Harman Corp. sort of gets there - but its a little discombobulated with the various brands - Revel, Levinson, JBL, etc.
There are others too....
Buying a pair of speakers from a speaker (only) manufacturer may produce brand loyalty to some extent. But people who have an entire McIntosh system for example, truly demonstrate brand loyalty and those are the ones, IMO, who are drinking the Kool-Aid (and tasty Kool-Aid too I might add).
When you compare high end audio to Apple, you need to look at companies offering an entire ecosystem of products. This, to me, is what truly creates brand loyalty.
McIntosh for example, produces speakers, electronics, cables and pretty much everything you need to be brand loyal and live within their ecosystem.
Raidho is getting there. They produce speakers (Raidho), cables (Ansuz), electrical and mechanical grounding devices (Ansuz), stands (Ansuz), etc. and electronics are rumored.
Harman Corp. sort of gets there - but its a little discombobulated with the various brands - Revel, Levinson, JBL, etc.
There are others too....
Buying a pair of speakers from a speaker (only) manufacturer may produce brand loyalty to some extent. But people who have an entire McIntosh system for example, truly demonstrate brand loyalty and those are the ones, IMO, who are drinking the Kool-Aid (and tasty Kool-Aid too I might add).
For me, the OP's list of reasons for brand loyalty to Wilson aren't very important. I don't care if someone claims to know how to setup speakers and sends me invitations to parties. To me, brand loyalty is like when you have to move and you call your friend and ask him for a hand moving your the refrigerator. Does he take your call? Will he come over and bust his ass for you WHEN YOUR REALLY NEED IT? That's what brand loyalty is all about, IMO.
I'll give you guys a YG example. I blew my tweeter in my left speaker about six months ago because of user error. Prior to that, I had dropped my left speaker onto an amplifier. Of course, the amp took the majority of the damage. But, there were some marks on the inside panel of my YG speaker.
I had to send my speaker back to Colorado to get the tweeter replaced. While it was there, I asked Yoav Geva about the panel and how much it would cost to replace it. He said he would look into it. Next thing I knew the speaker was shipped back to me within one week via FEDEX freight. I called my dealer. When I got the speaker, I discovered that Yoav had replaced the scratched panel with a new one and tweeter was replaced with a new one as well. Yoav Geva never sent me a bill and never charged me a cent for return shipping. All of the replacement parts and labor were free of charge even though all of the damage to the speaker was 100% my fault and technically not covered under the YG warranty. To this day, I never got a bill from YG.
That's what makes brand loyalty for me.
Michael.
I'll give you guys a YG example. I blew my tweeter in my left speaker about six months ago because of user error. Prior to that, I had dropped my left speaker onto an amplifier. Of course, the amp took the majority of the damage.
But, there were some marks on the inside panel of my YG speaker. I had to send my speaker back to Colorado to get the tweeter replaced. While it was there, I asked Yoav Geva about the panel and how much it would cost to replace it. He said he would look into it. Next thing I knew the speaker was shipped back to me within one week via FEDEX freight. I called my dealer. When I got the speaker, I discovered that Yoav had replaced the scratched panel with a new one and tweeter was replaced with a new one as well. Yoav Geva never sent me a bill and never charged me a cent for return shipping. All of the replacement parts and labor were free of charge even though all of the damage to the speaker was 100% my fault and technically not covered under the YG warranty. To this day, I never got a bill from YG.
That's what makes brand loyalty for me.
Michael.
The other people I compare to Steve Jobs (in the audio industry), are Nelson Pass, Dr. Bose, Noel Lee, James B. Lansing and a few others. These guys are not the magnitude of Jobs, but in the "audio industry", they are.... IMO....
Which they should. When a company goes out of their way to satisfy their customers, that's what creates brand loyalty.
we had dueling high-end stores where I once lived each with their own loyal following. I stuck with the bohemian/laid back store, they embraced tubes and almost exclusively demoed with vinyl (still has 35,000 LPs on display for sale). the other shop played the same audiophile drek over and over and the clientele was more uptight/constipated. I ended up owning more Conrad Johnson and krell than I wanted (the other store had ARC and levinson) I did flirt with buying from the 'other place' but I remained loyal. to this day we remain great friends, whenever I stop in we talk about everything under the sun except audio (a good thing)
Good points, but brand loyalty also must assume your brand has something unique that connects all their components. BTW, if people want to see real brand loyalty in audio they should look at McIntosh threads, such as those in AudioAficionado.org . Compared to the posters in these threads we WBF members are just pale images of real brand loyalty.
Curiously, the brand loyalty to McIntosh does not oblige you to have their speakers.
My 2 cents.
To me, all this rivalry between Wilson and Magico just mirrors the leadership the two brands have on the US market for reference loudspeaker design. Period.
Being reference products, and being them applied on a field that establish its roots on fidelity, 2 cleverly designed systems*, one with Wilson and one with Magico, should offer exciting results. All the surrounding flames are just time subtracted to music listening
It's curious to notice, anyway, how discussions are differently polarized here in the US, compared to Italy (where I used to live till Dec 2008).
In Italy, the most debated speakers are the B&W 800 series: why? because they're a wonderful concentration of R&D, all home manufactured, sold at a competitive price, BUT insanely demanding in amplification quality and muscles. So, some people love them, other hate them.
In Italy people are not "fighting" for Wilson vs Magico, because those speakers are just considered the undiscussed gotha. They are distributed by different companies, and Wilson are always demoed with ARC, VTL or D'Agostino, while Magico with Spectral or Boulder.
Competition between the two companies, anyway, has its positive outcomes: both companies are transferring their reference technologies to their less expensive products...
*I think that the quality of a system stays on the synergy of the components a system is assembled with. A well conceived system will always probably sound good (in the right room, obviously).
To me, all this rivalry between Wilson and Magico just mirrors the leadership the two brands have on the US market for reference loudspeaker design. Period.
Being reference products, and being them applied on a field that establish its roots on fidelity, 2 cleverly designed systems*, one with Wilson and one with Magico, should offer exciting results. All the surrounding flames are just time subtracted to music listening
It's curious to notice, anyway, how discussions are differently polarized here in the US, compared to Italy (where I used to live till Dec 2008).
In Italy, the most debated speakers are the B&W 800 series: why? because they're a wonderful concentration of R&D, all home manufactured, sold at a competitive price, BUT insanely demanding in amplification quality and muscles. So, some people love them, other hate them.
In Italy people are not "fighting" for Wilson vs Magico, because those speakers are just considered the undiscussed gotha. They are distributed by different companies, and Wilson are always demoed with ARC, VTL or D'Agostino, while Magico with Spectral or Boulder.
Competition between the two companies, anyway, has its positive outcomes: both companies are transferring their reference technologies to their less expensive products...
*I think that the quality of a system stays on the synergy of the components a system is assembled with. A well conceived system will always probably sound good (in the right room, obviously).
For me, the OP's list of reasons for brand loyalty to Wilson aren't very important. I don't care if someone claims to know how to setup speakers and sends me invitations to parties. To me, brand loyalty is like when you have to move and you call your friend and ask him for a hand moving your the refrigerator. Does he take your call? Will he come over and bust his ass for you WHEN YOUR REALLY NEED IT? That's what brand loyalty is all about, IMO.
I'll give you guys a YG example. I blew my tweeter in my left speaker about six months ago because of user error. Prior to that, I had dropped my left speaker onto an amplifier. Of course, the amp took the majority of the damage.
I had to send my speaker back to Colorado to get the tweeter replaced. While it was there, I asked Yoav Geva about the panel and how much it would cost to replace it. He said he would look into it. Next thing I knew the speaker was shipped back to me within one week via FEDEX freight. I called my dealer. When I got the speaker, I discovered that Yoav had replaced the scratched panel with a new one and tweeter was replaced with a new one as well. Yoav Geva never sent me a bill and never charged me a cent for return shipping. All of the replacement parts and labor were free of charge even though all of the damage to the speaker was 100% my fault and technically not covered under the YG warranty. To this day, I never got a bill from YG.
That's what makes brand loyalty for me.
Michael.
Many other brands will do the same, but will not assume it openly to avoid abuse. As they say, once it was bad luck (or a even manufacturing defect, that they will never admit ... ), twice is misuse. Fortunately the very few speaker units I had to replace were always bad luck.
Coming from a huge Apple fan(boy) I do see one overlapping truth about Steve Jobs and Dave Wilson: both recognize(d) that without great marketing, the product would have limited appeal.
But Dave Wilson, while surviving and flourishing in a tough market, is no Steve Jobs---by a long shot!
As to the thread subject, I certainly have had brand loyalty but it has it's limits. (And I also agree that dealer support plays a key role - whether audio or cars or wine or watches or ....)
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