Breaking news from DCS….

[Elliot G.]

Elliot,

This thread is on dCS products, the Vivaldi is highly considered by many people, it is natural that Wadax comes on the thread.

IMHO a lot could be gained from the measurements - particularly as some people as me consider they are relevant, both when taking a purchase decision or just as part of the hobby.

You have other excellent products, where the manufacturer is proud of their top measurements and uses them as a marketing argument. Wadax always claimed that they have top measurements and consider it a very important aspect of their design.

Remember that in general audiophiles love reading reviews. On forums some will say they hate them and horrible things about the whole process, but if they find a reviewer agrees with them or says nice things about some thing they own or love they will consider it a valuable exception ... Reviews are part of the hobby.

Not at all what I was talking about . Someone saying that he has seen measurements, from an unknown source of unknown origin coming to some conclusion without proof and without acknowledging where it came from is .... you tell me. I thought this thread was about news from dCS.
The rest is whatever it is. I was trying to point out something that is total BS

 

[microstrip]

Not at all what I was talking about . Someone saying that he has seen measurements, from an unknown source of unknown origin coming to some conclusion without proof and without acknowledging where it came from is .... you tell me. I thought this thread was about news from dCS.
The rest is whatever it is. I was trying to point out something that is total BS

I suggest that next time you quote the post you are answering - this way we can know what you are exactly you are addressing.

As you should know since the WBF early days threads are not rigid bays - many very interesting discussions were not directly related to the thread main subject. In case the situation becomes out of control we have moderators that are the only people who are supposed to moderate threads and members.

 

[Elliot G.]

Dear Micro,
There are no measurements. Period that was my point. The unsubstantiated comment with no source , no facts and no proof started a discussion about nothing. If they existed I would not have said a single word, far from me to disturb you informed discussion. At best this was some attempt of self elevation and worst it was a nefarious act aimed to undermine a product and a company. I will always stand up for myself, my products, my friends and when I think there is a load of crap dropped on the table and someone is telling me its a filet mignon.
One last time no measurements comparing the three items exist! Fact not fake news.

 

[ALF]

Coca-Cola, popcorn and maybe chips…

 

[microstrip]

(...) One last time no measurements comparing the three items exist! Fact not fake news.

One last time, the relevant fact is that we have measurements from two items and we do not have ANY measurements from the other one, although the manufacturer suggests they are SOTA.

And some people put value in measurements, particularly at this price level.

 

[microstrip]

(...) What particular measurements are you interested in and why?

I would like to see spectra of harmonic distortion at extremely low levels.

And how do those measurements relate to your listening preferences?

Still researching it. This one would be one more data point.

 

[Elliot G.]

O

One last time, the relevant fact is that we have measurements from two items and we do not have ANY measurements from the other one, although the manufacturer suggests they are SOTA.

And some people put value in measurements, particularly at this price level.

One last time they are non existent and if they were we wouldn't be having this ridiculous discussion. I am not trying to stop whatever you think you need only that someone posted a bunch of crap. If you need the measurements perhaps some day they will post them. You can certainly write to the company and ask them that question.

 

[pk_LA]

I find the nature of some products and the aura around them quite curious. Maybe it is the price point. Maybe it's the unorthodox chassis. Maybe it's just the nature of being the newly reported champion of the world. I am not sure what it is and maybe it's all of the above. Whatever it is, the Wadax certainly seems to stir debate.

Normally, I lurk here and only post when I either have direct information on a topic or I am seeking advice. I decided to post on this thread because I very much respect the notes and advice given by many of you posting here and it's getting maybe a little more testy than I am used to seeing you. Anyway, I read this thread and a few thoughts relative to the discourse here came to mind.
1) I am quite sure the Wadax is a world-class DAC. I understand that reviewers gush over everything and I get the greased palm bias. But, it's unlikely that so many people would use such superlative absolutes to describe something that wasn't at least in the neighborhood of being such.
2) I find measurements to be a dog-catching variable rather than a predictor of excellence. if measurements were the divining rod of audio excellence I would have a $1,000 dac and be done. But, having heard one of the best-measuring dacs vis-a-vis an inferior measuring one I, for one, will say that measurements serve the purpose of merely weeding out the 'dogs' vs telling us which ones we'll love. On this note, think about tubes versus solid-state: why would anyone buy a tube system if measurements were king?
3) Most all of us are biased towards that which we have purchased. Many times even to a fault. If you bought a Wadax I am sure you did so because you love the sound. And, I am sure it's great. But, that might not mean that it's infallible

 

[Al M.]

2) I find measurements to be a dog-catching variable rather than a predictor of excellence. if measurements were the divining rod of audio excellence I would have a $1,000 dac and be done. But, having heard one of the best-measuring dacs vis-a-vis an inferior measuring one I, for one, will say that measurements serve the purpose of merely weeding out the 'dogs' vs telling us which ones we'll love. On this note, think about tubes versus solid-state: why would anyone buy a tube system if measurements were king?

Well said. If measurements were everything, no one would design anymore an R2R DAC, because delta sigma DACs usually measure better.

Schiit makes delta sigma DACs in the lower price range because they are cheaper to make, but their top DACs are R2R because the chief designer thinks they sound better. The designer will readily admit that the company's $100 delta sigma DACs measure better in several respects than their much more expensive R2R DACs, but he doesn’t care (and neither do the company's customers). He tries to make his top R2R DAC measure the best he can, and he does very much care about linearity, but that's it.

 

[AndrewChen]

Huh?? What particular measurements are you interested in and why? And how do those measurements relate to your listening preferences?

Curious minds want to know.

Full disclosure: I cannot afford Wadax or Vivaldi. Probably never will. I am just curious. My current DAC, the Esoteric N-01Xd is far as I can go money wise. At least until breaks down and cannot be fixed

Probably doesn’t belong in this thread... but IMHO, it’s quite simple really; Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

https://wadax.eu/reference/

Fed back into our Fundamental Research Program, these performance improvements have revealed that, once the noise and error levels across the circuit blocks are reduced below a certain point - and in reaching that point, the original Atlantis DAC already surpasses all of the competition…

Not only because we have touched almost theoretical measurements… Besides the crazy bench measurements we have achieved…

… such extraordinary claims, all without any evidence so far (and no, I’m not interested in random people's subjective opinions).

Of course, measurements won't tell us how it sounds, but measurements will give us good insights into how well it's actually engineered given those extraordinary claims, and in comparison to other SOTA platforms with measurements in the public domain.

 

[Audiocrack]

This thread is a perfect example of how audio discussions on a forum turn out to be - and let me put this in a somewhat diplomatic way - not very productive. This is a thread about an interesting DCS topic and - contrary to Fransisco/Microstrip’ s opinion - in my view Wadax measurements have nothing to do it.

And for what it is worth - because another subjective opinion, although based on many years DCS four box Scarlatti experience and having heard the DCS four box Vivaldi player in my own system which player was set up by a DCS representative (although quite some years ago) -: the Wadax reference dac is (indeed) a different ‘animal’ than the DCS Vivaldi. The former is all about a very fluid, serene, pure and non fatiguing presentation while being at the same time an extremely transparent and dynamic sounding device. And just to be sure: I am not bashing a fine product like the DCS Vivaldi, far from it! Just saying that the Wadax reference dac is imho a different sounding device that will appeal to other listeners than audiophiles who like the DCS Vivaldi. And that is why there are various separate Wadax threads on WBF.

So let’s stick to the original DCS topic in this thread please.

 

[nirodha]

For me the order is:
1. Sound
2. Ex aequo> build quality / user friendliness
3. …..
4 …..
5 ….
6. Measurements
now, let’s give the space back to dCS fans. It is their thread
Have a nice Sunday everyone

 

[acousticsguru]

One may or may not care about measurements (I personally do once I heard something, like it, and consider buying it, on its own, not at all), but I agree there’s little point in referring to them in one’s sales pitch and not back up one’s claim. I mean, when someone says they’re building the finest-sounding DAC in the Universe, I’m allowed to listen to it before making a commitment, am I not? Pure pragmatism…

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

 

[Yuen A.]

Well said. If measurements were everything, no one would design anymore an R2R DAC, because delta sigma DACs usually measure better.

Schiit makes delta sigma DACs in the lower price range because they are cheaper to make, but their top DACs are R2R because the chief designer thinks they sound better. The designer will readily admit that the company's $100 delta sigma DACs measure better in several respects than their much more expensive R2R DACs, but he doesn’t care (and neither do the company's customers). He tries to make his top R2R DAC measure the best he can, and he does very much care about linearity, but that's it.

Hi,

It makes no sense to say which is better because there are many variables of implementation in designing and building a DAC.

Technically speaking, one - bit Sigma - Delta DAC is better than ladder DAC. The main problem in manufacturing a ladder DAC is the precision required in the values of the resistors relative to each other. To some, ladder DAC sounds better because they interpret higher distortions with certain character as better sounding.

 

[Al M.]

Hi,

It makes no sense to say which is better because there are many variables of implementation in designing and building a DAC.

Yes, implementation is everything. I myself am not making a particular claim about the sound of delta sigma vs R2R -- the designer of Schiit does -- even though I have yet to hear an example that convinces me that he is wrong. That does not mean that such an example doesn’t exist. I am open to evidence.

By the way, I have also heard an R2R DAC that sounds artificial. So it cuts both ways. R2R is not an automatic guarantee either.

To some, ladder DAC sounds better because they interpret higher distortions with certain character as better sounding.

Now that's a funny interpretation and rationalization.

 

[jfrech]

For me the order is:
1. Sound
2. Ex aequo> build quality / user friendliness
3. …..
4 …..
5 ….
6. Measurements
now, let’s give the space back to dCS fans. It is their thread
Have a nice Sunday everyone

Thanks, but PS, I love your Nagra CD player !

 

[jfrech]

My dealer is bringing his Vivaldi Apex DAC by on Tuesday this week. I'll get to keep it for a few days so it can warm up etc. He's had it for at least two weeks so should be fully broken in.

I'll post my impressions soon...my Apex is already on order, just waiting my turn...

 

[microstrip]

Well said. If measurements were everything, no one would design anymore an R2R DAC, because delta sigma DACs usually measure better.

Who in WBF says measurements were everything? You are fighting windmills ...

Schiit makes delta sigma DACs in the lower price range because they are cheaper to make, but their top DACs are R2R because the chief designer thinks they sound better. The designer will readily admit that the company's $100 delta sigma DACs measure better in several respects than their much more expensive R2R DACs, but he doesn’t care (and neither do the company's customers). He tries to make his top R2R DAC measure the best he can, and he does very much care about linearity, but that's it.

Thanks for letting us know about people preferences and his customers. The R2R option matches his preferences, and his customers like it. Great.

The interesting point was that Schiit fans cared for measurements. When someone referred to Stereophile poor measurements of an old model they immediately reacted showing the much better measurements of the new improved unit!

 

[microstrip]

This thread is a perfect example of how audio discussions on a forum turn out to be - and let me put this in a somewhat diplomatic way - not very productive. This is a thread about an interesting DCS topic and - contrary to Fransisco/Microstrip’ s opinion - in my view Wadax measurements have nothing to do it.

Well, I must say I do not care about productivity in WBF threads. IMHO measurements are relevant in dCS thread and Wadax or MSB talk is always welcome in this thread, they are considered top sounding machines. dCS has a long tradition of showing measurements and when there was a sound quality improvement for which they could not show a measurable reason to explain it they had the humility of saying so.

IMHO it always interesting to contrast designer/manufacturer aims and options.

And for what it is worth - because another subjective opinion, although based on many years DCS four box Scarlatti experience and having heard the DCS four box Vivaldi player in my own system which player was set up by a DCS representative (although quite some years ago) -: the Wadax reference dac is (indeed) a different ‘animal’ than the DCS Vivaldi. The former is all about a very fluid, serene, pure and non fatiguing presentation while being at the same time an extremely transparent and dynamic sounding device. And just to be sure: I am not bashing a fine product like the DCS Vivaldi, far from it! Just saying that the Wadax reference dac is imho a different sounding device that will appeal to other listeners than audiophiles who like the DCS Vivaldi. And that is why there are various separate Wadax threads on WBF.

Thanks for confirming they are different "animals". Just looking at them we can expect it!

So let’s stick to the original DCS topic in this thread please.

Why such drama and not simply waiting that the thread returns to main topic? This happens all the time in WBF, except in Member Systems, where the system owner can request sticking to his system.

As soon as we have more people listening to APEX the thread will surely go in topic!

 

[Audiocrack]

Well, I must say I do not care about productivity in WBF threads. IMHO measurements are relevant in dCS thread and Wadax or MSB talk is always welcome in this thread, they are considered top sounding machines. dCS has a long tradition of showing measurements and when there was a sound quality improvement for which they could not show a measurable reason to explain it they had the humility of saying so.

IMHO it always interesting to contrast designer/manufacturer aims and options.



Thanks for confirming they are different "animals". Just looking at them we can expect it!



Why such drama and not simply waiting that the thread returns to main topic? This happens all the time in WBF, except in Member Systems, where the system owner can request sticking to his system.

As soon as we have more people listening to APEX the thread will surely go in topic!

“Drama”?? What are you talking about? I am only suggesting that you do not mix up cq do not combine things that are totally irrelevant for this thread, nothing more, nothing less. Your ‘unfriendly’ reaction is clear though and I leave it at that.