Burn-in
- Thread starter Vincent Kars
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Any one having experience with tubes know they have a burn-in phase - it can be measured and monitored and has a simple physical explanation - regularization of the cathode emission.
Dielectric formation in insulating materials is also well known and studied.
Some people claim that there is no difference in capacitor sound and cables sound. Coherently they will not accept that these small electrical changes result in audible differences, claiming for the non existence of blind test proof.
Dielectric formation in insulating materials is also well known and studied.
Some people claim that there is no difference in capacitor sound and cables sound. Coherently they will not accept that these small electrical changes result in audible differences, claiming for the non existence of blind test proof.
It all depend on the quality level of whole system, there are not only one cap or one cable in the whole thing that is why someone can detect the difference but someone don't by their system, replacing tubes is most easy to feel the difference( better or worse )even same kind or same brand of the tube, I guess SS will be the same too, change just one of them will change the sound too, but you can't do this experiment in a easy way like tube !
tony ma
tony ma
Are you prepared to fund the acquisition of a PET (positron emission tomography) scanner to carry the needed scientific tests?
Are you prepared to fund the acquisition of a PET (positron emission tomography) scanner to carry the needed scientific tests?
I don't think HMSA will cover it.
This pretty much sums it up.....
"MEASUREMENTS DO NOT RELATE WELL TO WHAT THE EAR PERCEIVES.
MEASUREMENTS DO NOT EXPLAIN WHAT THE EAR PERCEIVES; THIS IS TO SAY, WE DO NOT KNOW WHAT TO MEASURE.
LISTEN AND TRUST YOUR EARS."
garylkoh
WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
Best explanation I've heard from a sales guy about the necessity of burn-in is that you needed to fill the system's electron gaps with musically trained electrons from your CD and drive out the bad electrons. Then, the system will sound more musical and rhythmic. Another story I've heard is that the electrons flowing at the speed of light in the cable will polish the pathways so that the cable sounds smoother and less harsh. The electrons don't have such a bumpy ride from one end of the cable to the other end.
Oh, no! I just wanted the PET scanner to avoid the need of using brain autopsy techniques!
Oh, no! I just wanted the PET scanner to avoid the need of using brain autopsy techniques!
Hopefully not on a living patient.
Rich
There are a couple of things happening... firstly, in the case of cables, the dialetric is gettting charged up and all that. This is really conditioning. Secondly, for electronics, it's pretty obvious how the sound of the device changes every, say, 10 hours. A new DAC here is being run 24/7 with the Reference Recordings/XLO conditioning track, and the sound has gone, over a 10 day period, from eh?, to promising, to pretty good, to really good, to semi-divine. Full divinity will probably take another couple of months. Technically, bias levels change, for example, capacitors get fully charged up, dialetrics polarize and all that. So, sure, there are lots of measurable phenomena if you pop the lid and poke around.
One manufacturer of DACs burns the units in for 5-7 days, then tweaks all the trim pots, etc., before releasing them to the field.
One manufacturer of DACs burns the units in for 5-7 days, then tweaks all the trim pots, etc., before releasing them to the field.
Hmmm... Filling the charge states in the cables I believe; whether it is audible, not so much but I do not know. I am from MO, show me! When I have measured that effect it has been very far down, well below any threshold of audibility I have heard (no pun intended).
Gary -- You should know better than to trust a sales guy. BTW, electric current can flow near the speed of light (actually, about half that in the real world of wires), but the electrons themselves do not. They'd need infinite potential difference and infinite mass, or negative time or mass, all difficult to achieve in practice.
E = mc^2 is simplified; a little closer is to use relativistic mass, m = mo / sqrt(1 - v^2/c^2) where mo is resting mass, v is velocity, and c is the speed of light; if v = c we see m goes to infinity. Heavy cables, dude!
"Bumpy ride" could actually make some sense in the context of charges filling in the traps...
Gary -- You should know better than to trust a sales guy.
BTW, electric current can flow near the speed of light (actually, about half that in the real world of wires), but the electrons themselves do not. They'd need infinite potential difference and infinite mass, or negative time or mass, all difficult to achieve in practice. E = mc^2 is simplified; a little closer is to use relativistic mass, m = mo / sqrt(1 - v^2/c^2) where mo is resting mass, v is velocity, and c is the speed of light; if v = c we see m goes to infinity. Heavy cables, dude!
"Bumpy ride" could actually make some sense in the context of charges filling in the traps...
Well, the fastest cable I know about (Nordost Odin) claims 98% of the speed of light. Even the cheap ladder line or other twin-lead types reach more than 80%. It can be relevant only if want to be the first to listen ...
IMO sound quality change not because of speed of electrons in the conductor, is the self capacitance and self inductance of the cable delay the frequency transfer time to make difference, burn in means make those value change to smaller than before by stronger current flow through
tony ma
tony ma
Hmmm... Most of my experience is with microwave cables, and I am pretty sure I have never seen any with vp = 98 % c but a few were close. Gore or Microcoax coax cables tend to run a little lower, maybe 70 % to 80 % and that's what I have mostly used. Twin-lead is great up to maybe UHF, then gets really lossy and of course is not well-shielded so I have rarely used it. In a piece of copper wire over a ground plane, I have measured around 50 - 60 % (9"/ns), and as low as 40 % for stripline or microstrip in a standard FR4 board.
First to listen, yeah!
- Donp.s. I recently calculated the VF of 18-guage zip cord; VF = 0.419 based upon LC only.
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I do not understand how burn-in can reduce the intrinsic LC of a cable... I agree speed of electrons, or current flow, would seem to have little to do with it. I am also familiar with charge traps and the need for d.c. bias when making sub-uV measurements (been there, done that); I remain skeptical such effects are audible but do not know.
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