Cables can make a huge difference...

[Synaxis]

Sure, I understand what you're saying and believe Ralph's argument is convincing on some level. Here's a few things to consider:

- I do sell cables, but I'm not unique. You can find many similar cables out there. The guidelines I give for what makes a good cable are not specific to my own cables, but are an attempt to educate folks about the subject.

I've always found the response of "you sell something therefore I can't trust you / you must be lying / I'll just ignore it" as a lazy way of not having to think for themselves.

Just because someone sells something doesn't automatically make him wrong or right on a subject.

 

[thedudeabides]

I've always found the response of "you sell something therefore I can't trust you / you must be lying / I'll just ignore it" as a lazy way of not having to think for themselves.

Just because someone sells something doesn't automatically make him wrong or right on a subject.

One would think that the technical information DC is providing, as in Post 155, would be readily verifiable if someone were so inclined. And if one finds conflicting factual information to the contrary, that would a valid basis to criticize / question personal motives.

 

[Synaxis]

One would think that the technical information DC is providing, as in Post 155, would be readily verifiable if someone were so inclined. And if one finds conflicting factual information to the contrary, that would a valid basis to criticize / question personal motives.

I liken it to how I got into the world of digital tweaks:

People on the forums and FB were posting "factual" info that says all cables (especially digital) sound the same. And all switches sound the same. And it's nothing but 1's and 0's and nothing more.

And people were posting "factual" information to the contrary.

Tired of listening to people bicker and not knowing which was true, I bought 16 different switches from Amazon and a bunch of different ethernet cables and tested for myself.

Now I know in my personal opinion which I agree with.

Facts can be made to be factual any way we want them to be. But no one can change what I heard and what I know to be true to me, nor would I try and convince anyone else what is true to them.

 

[thedudeabides]

I was talking about mathematical formulas (Ohms law for example) that have been used in numerous calculations and, to the best of my knowledge, are accepted as factual.

 

[Synaxis]

I was talking about mathematical formulas (Ohms law for example) that have been used in numerous calculations and, to the best of my knowledge, are accepted as factual

Apologies - I misunderstood. Thank you for clarifying.

 

[Holmz]

That should not be in doubt. The impact of a dielectric is easily measured as it affects the capacitance and therefore the inductance.

Not so much of an effect upon the inductance…

Every cable is a filter. The hinge frequency is determined by the LCR characteristic.

How about all the talk about triloibic effect and polarisation of the dielectric?
Or is it just all about the filtering?

 

[Holmz]

This is a perfect example of deceptive statements and illustrates how Ralph is misleading everyone here. The claims he's not a cable denier are false. They are a lie.

What Ralph's statement here boils down to is RESISTANCE. If the resistance of the PC is too high and there's measurable voltage drop across the cable, IT'S BROKEN!

Let's look at this carefully:

A 12g wire has a resistance of .0159 ohms for 10 ft. A relatively long power cable, but let's go with that as 10ft is a nice round number.

What's the voltage drop across .0159 ohms? Ohm's law states V=IR. Take an amp that draws something significant, like 500W. At 120V we have just over 4A, so let's go with 4A for simplicity. The voltage drop is going to be V=4A x .0159 Ohms = .0636V.

This means if we start with 120V, at the other end of a 10 ft long, 12g power cable we get 119.9364 Volts.

Now I'll claim this makes no difference, your home AC power supply often varies by several volts, and .0636 V difference is not going to actually change the output power, impedance or distortion of an amplifier.

Ralph's claim is deceitful and misleading. If you do the math you'll see the only way his claim makes any sense is if the cable's wiring or terminations have been compromised and present significant resistance, in other words, if the cable is BROKEN.

So yeah, Ralph isn't a cable denier. He's just believes that the only way a cable makes a difference is if it's broken, or so horribly misdesigned that it's an outlier, like using a power or speaker cable made with super light gauge wire. But we don't do this. If anything we use cables that are OVERKILL as far as gauge and quality of termination.

Do we have any proof that the AC (power) cable makes a difference, other than based upon hearing a difference?
Like some objective measurement?

If the amp’s power supply’s rails are being maintained at some constant voltage, then I would think that PC would be doing its job.

 

[Hear Here]

Just a thought - no one has yet mentioned cryogenically treated cables.

Does that mean that all those people raving about this magic treatment a few years ago were actually being hoodwinked? Too many fads involving cables and the differences that are claimed to make light and day improvements are often soon discounted - until another fad is promoted.

 

[treitz3]

I don't thinks so (regarding being hoodwinked). My recent findings are that I have been preferring cables that just so happen to be treated. Not because I specifically wanted this to be the case, but something I have just observed as the system advances.

Tom

 

[TonyW]

Do we have any proof that the AC (power) cable makes a difference, other than based upon hearing a difference?
Like some objective measurement?

If the amp’s power supply’s rails are being maintained at some constant voltage, then I would think that PC would be doing its job.

Sigh. Will this idle speculation ever stop? Do people really just sit back and expect someone, by typing on their keyboard will convince them that Power Cords make a difference? Do they really believe that a manufacturer that has spent years and dollars developing audio power cords and cables is just going to give up their knowledge for nothing? Do these same people walk into a Verizon store and demand someone show them how a cell phone works before buying one? I want to see the math. I want to see the white paper. I will not understand it all but at least I will know someone knows how it works. Really? We depend on airbags working when we need them. Do you think it is as simple as a bag going boom? It is way more complicated than that. And guess what- the cables on airbags matter. I'm an engineer. I have been taking things apart since I was a little kid. I took my mom's sewing machine motor apart when I was 8. I got a whooping for that but it did not curb my curiosity. But these days- I take for granted that cellphones work. They want us to think cellphones are advanced forms of walkie talkies but I suspect sorcery is involved.

Go buy, rent or borrow some high end power cords and see/hear for yourself if they make a difference. Or else go to a hifi shop and let them demonstrate some high end power cords. Just, go do. Then everyone can say with first hand experience, I hear a difference or I don't hear a difference. And that comes down to the grasshopper story. I have my theories about how high end power cords work but I'm not about to disassemble them. They cost too much. And my theories are probably wrong anyway. My experience with power cords- the most notable difference to me is noise reduction. They create a blacker background which brings out more clarity and resolution/detail. The crazy thing is I thought the background was already dead quiet but upgrading power cords makes the background even quieter- like turning on noise canceling headphones. The other improvement is naturalness. I have no fatigue or that feeling of cotton in my ears after hours of listening.

 

[Rensselaer]

I bought three power cords from someone on this website, made no audible difference to me but perhaps my hearing is defective. The creator of the cables assures us that he has conducted a great deal of research and hearing tests to perfect them and I paid a good deal for them too but maybe I need to spend more to hear the difference?

Would my spending say $5,060.00 for a six foot Audience AU24 SX cable make an audible difference that I can hear? How about $9,000.00 for a Shunyata Research Omega QR? I guess it would be guaranteed that I would definitely hear much better sound if I spent $14,600 each for Crystal Cable Art Series Da Vinci power cords, no, better sound is not guaranteed?

https://crystalcable.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/2022-general-conditions46.pdf

 

[Republicoftexas69]

Just a thought - no one has yet mentioned cryogenically treated cables.

Does that mean that all those people raving about this magic treatment a few years ago were actually being hoodwinked? Too many fads involving cables and the differences that are claimed to make light and day improvements are often soon discounted - until another fad is promoted.

I have used them over the years in different systems. I am currently using Purist Audio Designs and I am very happy with their performance and are a real value in my opinion. https://puristaudiodesign.com/Data/products/interconnects/int_mus.html

I bought three power cords from someone on this website, made no audible difference to me but perhaps my hearing is defective. The creator of the cables assures us that he has conducted a great deal of research and hearing tests to perfect them and I paid a good deal for them too but maybe I need to spend more to hear the difference?

Would my spending say $5,060.00 for a six foot Audience AU24 SX cable make an audible difference that I can hear? How about $9,000.00 for a Shunyata Research Omega QR? I guess one needs to spend $14,600 for a Crystal Cable Art Series Da Vinci power cord to hear it?

So were you able to return them and get a full refund?

 

[Rensselaer]

I have used them over the years in different systems. I am currently using Purist Audio Designs and I am very happy with their performance and are a real value in my opinion. https://puristaudiodesign.com/Data/products/interconnects/int_mus.html

So were you able to return them and get a full refund?

I probably could have mailed the 9 foot lengths back to the USA and get my money back (however the ridiculously inappropriate speaker hook up wire he also made for me he wouldn’t).

I needed 9’ power cords and the stock cords weren’t that long. After the break in period when I realised there wouldn’t be a sudden improvement, I accepted it would probably be the same regardless of who made them.

Manufacturers giving your money back is wise as you are less likely to denounce them after getting a prompt refund. Others, like me, will assume the break in period hasn’t been enough or my hearing is bad or just give up. The problem is the snake oil salesman continues to rip off the gullible and no one wants to admit they spent a fortune for something they could have put together themselves for a fraction of the cost (the Emperor’s New Clothes).

 

[Robh3606]

There are many newbie audio enthusiasts who believe both of these things.
Many of whom have never visited an audio shop, auditioned any other audio devices, and bought audio equipment based on measurements alone. These people believe their cost-effective / primitive electronics to be the be-all-end all; Everything sounds the same! You're imagining differences where they don't exist. They say. lol.

Your missing something. There are also people, fewer now, who are not newbies by any stretch of the imagination who have done all of the above who also believe that cable differences are overblown and minor at best. Before monster cable came out I was using 14ga multi-stand as speaker wire because I understood that the current my 200 WPC amp could provide needed a path of least resistance.

Everyone understood the need for well made and reliable interconnects. Long before we had the $75K speaker cables or $10k 1 meter interconnects which is absolutely ridiculous.

Rob

 

[Republicoftexas69]

I probably could have mailed the 9 foot lengths back to the USA and get my money back (however the ridiculously inappropriate speaker hook up wire he also made for me he wouldn’t).

I needed 9’ power cords and the stock cords weren’t that long. After the break in period when I realised there wouldn’t be a sudden improvement, I accepted it would probably be the same regardless of who made them.

Manufacturers giving your money back is wise as you are less likely to denounce them after getting a prompt refund. Others, like me, will assume the break in period hasn’t been enough or my hearing is bad or just give up. The problem is the snake oil salesman continues to rip off the gullible and no one wants to admit they spent a fortune for something they could have put together themselves for a fraction of the cost (the Emperor’s New Clothes).

I have LessLoss C-Marc Prime PC installed in my mono blocks, pre amp's and DAC and they made noticeable improvement. Same holds true as I made upgrades with my IC using the Puritan products. Maybe a trip to the audiologist is over due.

 

[audiopro92]

Your missing something. There are also people, fewer now, who are not newbies by any stretch of the imagination who have done all of the above who also believe that cable differences are overblown and minor at best. Before monster cable came out I was using 14ga multi-stand as speaker wire because I understood that the current my 200 WPC amp could provide needed a path of least resistance.

Everyone understood the need for well made and reliable interconnects. Long before we had the $75K speaker cables or $10k 1 meter interconnects which is absolutely ridiculous.

Rob

Thanks for clarifying. And yes, that's certainly a valid point.

Some audio enthusiasts who used to believe that cable differences are real are now swayed in the opposite direction; mostly by online reviewers who are not worth their weight in salt. The interactions we create when we connect audio components together is important, rather than simply measuring the cables alone; or worse yet, on audio primitive audio equipment whose only claim to fame and marketing material is basic measurements on a test bench.

I may be getting a bit off topic here, but I'd like to add:

I have tried (and failed) dozens of times to convince the powers that be of the "objective" world that there are many other ways to deduce if audio equipment is well-engineered, designed, or worth the money. Companies that churn out cheap audio components with measurements we'll never need are doing a disservice to hi-fi, professional audio, and home audio enthusiasts alike. I've spent many thousands of dollars on the stuff that merely measures well to see if some online reviewers were actually reaching sound conclusions, and was left only be to extremely disappointed.

There are, and I can say this without hesitation, 2nd, 3rd and even 4th order harmonic distortions and colorations that ruin PRAT, imaging, detail retrieval, and ultimately reduce a live performance or great studio booth recording to mush. Some are so awful that it's not possible to fully repair how bad they sound with advanced PEQs! The extraordinary thing is, rookies without first hand-experience *you may know who* tell me their systems are just telling them the truth! Nope. Not even close. Forget post-pre ringing, hearing a click on recording console, etc. Too bad for them, it'll probably never happen because they have become brainwashed by measurements.

What really matters is engineering from the perspective of the circuit. Design compromises, cheap internal parts, and toy-like casework which cannot possibly dampen internals are all a recipe for disaster. And yet, there exist many in our hobby who vehemently impose their third-party beliefs on others who are more experienced with higher intellect/intelligence. When someone asks me if it's really worth it, I'll tell them: if you haven't tried it give it a go. Then it's on them to decide.

 

[Synaxis]

...... or worth the money.

I think looking at this topic - or frankly any topic in regards to "worth" without bias one way or the other requires taking a step back.

We often see people in audio claim something is a "rip off". This is a fundamentally flawed perspective. There is no way to state objectively if something is a rip off.

Is a Ferrari a rip off? Maybe if you point out there are other cars just as fast.

Is a Rolex a rip off? Maybe if you point out a Timex keep time just as well.

Yet there is a wait list for Ferrari and at the local Rolex dealers here they can't get enough to sell with the demand.

My point is while someone may feel something is not worth it to them personally, to declare something a rip off just because you don't see the value is a simplistic view point. Only the person actually buying the product will decide if something is worth that price or not.

At the end of the day the value of something and whether it is a "rip off" of not is decided by buyers - not jealous can't-afford-it forum people. If every person feels it is overpriced, then no one will buy it and the price will be reduced to where a demand exists for it.

I know you are not stating something is a rip-off, but I see others on forums all the time declare something a "rip off". It's almost always people who simply can't afford it.

I'd love a Rolex and can't afford one. I'll never declare it a "rip-off" as to others it is clearly not.

 

[DaveC]

I don't thinks so (regarding being hoodwinked). My recent findings are that I have been preferring cables that just so happen to be treated. Not because I specifically wanted this to be the case, but something I have just observed as the system advances.

Tom

Be careful with cryo. A friend recently send some stuff in, including an amp and a couple of cables, and it ruined them for him. It made for some edge in the highs that wouldn't go away.

Cryo treatments vary quite a bit in their temp profiles, so not all cryo is the same. It's like heat treatment, there's many ways to heat treat materials depending on what end result you're looking for.

 

[jbrrp1]

I bought three power cords from someone on this website, made no audible difference to me but perhaps my hearing is defective. The creator of the cables assures us that he has conducted a great deal of research and hearing tests to perfect them and I paid a good deal for them too but maybe I need to spend more to hear the difference?

The variety of experiences with power cords is interesting. In my systems over the years (and still now) I have found power cords to be the most significant impact on SQ, and there's been nothing subtle about the quality of the impact. But I'm sure there's a whole lot of "horses for courses" going on between components and site power quality.

 

[audiopro92]

I think looking at this topic - or frankly any topic in regards to "worth" without bias one way or the other requires taking a step back.

We often see people in audio claim something is a "rip off". This is a fundamentally flawed perspective. There is no way to state objectively if something is a rip off.

Is a Ferrari a rip off? Maybe if you point out there are other cars just as fast.

Is a Rolex a rip off? Maybe if you point out a Timex keep time just as well.

Yet there is a wait list for Ferrari and at the local Rolex dealers here they can't get enough to sell with the demand.

My point is while someone may feel something is not worth it to them personally, to declare something a rip off just because you don't see the value is a simplistic view point. Only the person actually buying the product will decide if something is worth that price or not.

At the end of the day the value of something and whether it is a "rip off" of not is decided by buyers - not jealous can't-afford-it forum people. If every person feels it is overpriced, then no one will buy it and the price will be reduced to where a demand exists for it.

I know you are not stating something is a rip-off, but I see others on forums all the time declare something a "rip off". It's almost always people who simply can't afford it.

I'd love a Rolex and can't afford one. I'll never declare it a "rip-off" as to others it is clearly not.

I am suggesting "worth the money" based on the level of technology, engineering, and design finesse that went in to audio equipment (or any audio device). If it was a solid effort and the manufacturer is well-known/respected, then it's probably worth the money. From the perspective of the buyer, if it meets their preferences/requirements and they can afford it, then why not? That's how I think about all products including but not limited to veblen goods. There is a certain level of care, brand prestige, or an overarching reason why such a product will be useful or add value to a person's life, even if it is highly-priced. So many reasons why someone parts with their money.

At the end of the day the value of something and whether it is a "rip off" of not is decided by buyers - not jealous can't-afford-it forum people. If every person feels it is overpriced, then no one will buy it and the price will be reduced to where a demand exists for it.

I do believe that at least some of the disagreement with have with so-called "objective audio enthusiasts" is based on their lack of income, their present living situation, or factors far beyond our control. Making someone else feel wrong or "putting them in their place" online often gives such people a sense of inflated self-esteem. Too bad that is only fleeting (and short-lived) so they often do it again, and again, trying to make others believe their conclusions are foolish, outdated, or just plain incorrect.