Cables can make a huge difference...

[Atmasphere]

Except that you havn’t run the same comparison with balanced cables made up of Cardas wire ( as one possible example) connecting the equipment that you list , against whatever balanced cable your “Golden Age Studios” were using at that time ! Or are you saying that you have ?

Yes. We have also compared, Purist, Kimber, Esoteric, Audioquest and Tara Labs. If the balanced equipment is doing its job properly, the differences between these cables go away. If the balanced equipment isn't doing its job properly then you here differences, sometimes pretty profound!

Is it your claim that if any XLR cable meets these specifications, then they will sound exactly alike?

No. My claim is that if the equipment meets the specifications, then the cables will all sound correct and therefore alike.

Just for the record, in case that matters or anyone cares, we (Atma-Sphere) have been doing balanced line operation longer than anyone else for home audio. When we started, it didn't occur to us that it might be 'OK' if we didn't support the balanced line connection standards. So our preamps have supported AES48 from the beginning and have no trouble driving a 600 Ohm balanced line, despite an all-tube signal path. We got a patent on how we did that FWIW. But as time went on we found a lot of 'high end' audio companies either chose to ignore the standards or were ignorant of them. Not sure which.

So the 'balanced cables can sound different from one another' and the debate about whether balanced cables sound better than RCA cables arose (FWIW, they sound better if the balanced standards are observed) because the standards weren't observed. We literally would not be having this converation otherwise.

I've been doing this and running cable comparisons, demonstrating that what I'm saying here is correct, going back to the 1980s. When Robert Fulton (the founder of the high end cable industry) first showed me his new RCA cable back in 1978 I wound up buying it because my system sounded better with it than without. After that I bought his new interconnect when it came out and again after that for the very same reason. I found it annoying! Since I had heard years earlier how balanced lines eliminated this problem (and its merry go round), when it came time to design a preamp I chose to support the balanced line tenants of AES48 and the low impedance aspect. I've been harping for decades now what that's all about. I'm doing it here. My point is: this is real. Go look at the schematics of studo equipment and you'll see that they usually take care to make sure it conforms to AES48 and also low impedance.

So in studio gear you'll see that its output is stated in dBM such as +10dBM (my Otarai tape machine is on the latter standard), rather than state what Voltage or minimum load is to be used. +10dBm is 10 milliwatts into 600 Ohms. Usually with tubes you need an output transformer for that and there are special semiconductor circuits that allow the output to float in a similar manner as an output transformer without damage. That dBm part is important as it assumes a 600 Ohm load at the output of the cable. My suspicion is those loads aren't present in your studio for some reason.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...I have Luxman gear: M900u amps and C900u control amp. These components use balanced topography, and I have always run them using balanced cables.

My understanding is that the guys in Japan know what a balanced topography requires, although I have not read anywhere that they specifically comply with AES48 specifications.

Do they?

Because I consider these components to have a balanced topography/design. And I can hear a difference among various XLRs I have used @Atmasphere

So if I hear a difference am I mistaken (I don't hear a difference) or is the Luxman gear not truly balanced? If I understand your assertion, these two things would not be true (balanced and different sounding XLRs) in the same component.

 

[DaveC]

Again, since Ralph seems determined to repeat the exact same thing over and over, yet he won't answer the simple question: Do you believe PCs and SCs all sound the same?

This is important, because they operate at much lower than 600 ohm impedances. Speakers are 4-8 ohm loads and the industry standard for AC power loads, what most EMI/RFI filters are based on, is a 50 ohm load. Neither AC power or Speakers need to be grounded. Speakers are not, and there's plenty of double insulated components that do not have any ground connection whatsoever.

So if merely dropping the impedance line level cables use from 10k-100k to .6k makes such a major difference and provides the user with magical cable immunity, then SCs and PCs surely all sound the same.

Ralph in fact believes this to be the case. In his previous reply to this question he gave an example of a BROKEN POWER CABLE to illustrate how PCs might sound different.

Now, Ralph is here to sell gear on the basis of a claim that, if you buy his gear, you get this magical cable immunity. It's a fabricaion and a lie. He may believe it to be true by repetition, we've seen him repeat it at least 5 times thus far in this thread, and he's likely repeated the same story a million times otherwise.

There is NOTHING ELSE in your audio system that makes no difference at all. Even your footers and shelves make a difference. Moving your speakers a small amount can make a difference. The time of day can make a difference. Yet, we are supposed to believe that if you use in/out trafos with 600 ohm specs that it magically goes away?

I think Ralph is taking everyone for fools. His claims make no sense whatsoever, and he has a motivation to lie, or at least be willfully ignorant about it in order to sell his products.

You may say, "Well, Dave... you are here to sell your products too!" and yes I am! But I do it by sharing info about exactly what I do, what my goals are, with an offer to demo what I make FOR FREE. No lies, nothing magical. Just honesty about what I make and way more transparency about it than any other cable co I've ever seen. So yes, we are here to sell products but we do it in VERY different ways, and to say it's the same is a false equivalency.

 

[Argonaut]

No. My claim is that if the equipment meets the specifications, then the cables will all sound correct and therefore alike.

Like all amplifiers , regardless of topology, that meet or exceed the threshold standard of 0.1% THD should therefore all amplify a signal indistinguishable from each other … You mean ?

 

[Atmasphere]

...I have Luxman gear: M900u amps and C900u control amp. These components use balanced topography, and I have always run them using balanced cables.

My understanding is that the guys in Japan know what a balanced topography requires, although I have not read anywhere that they specifically comply with AES48 specifications.

Do they?

Because I consider these components to have a balanced topography/design. And I can hear a difference among various XLRs I have used @Atmasphere

So if I hear a difference am I mistaken (I don't hear a difference) or is the Luxman gear not truly balanced? If I understand your assertion, these two things would not be true (balanced and different sounding XLRs) in the same component.

If you run our preamp and the amp's input is of higher impedance, you'll probably hear small differences in the cables. These will vanish if the preamp is driving a low impedance like 600 Ohms.

Balanced and single-ended are mutually incompatible. The Luxman site lacks information about how they achieve balanced operation, but some of the text suggests they have 4 of their modules to do it. That suggests that the output modules reference ground and are two single-ended outputs, one out of phase with the other. While that is balanced, it does not support AES48 if this is true. Contacting them might be the only way to find out what is what.

Like all amplifiers , regardless of topology, that meet or exceed the threshold standard of 0.1% THD should therefore all amplify a signal indistinguishable from each other … You mean ?

What are you talking about? I can't tell what you are asking.

 

[DaveC]

The thing, is you can't trust people that are deniers to do fair comparisons. The reason why is when you think parts don't matter you use cheap parts that are very colored.

In the context of a preamp designed by a denier, they use cheap commodity parts, wire and connectors. That includes the 600 ohm in/out trafos. And the whole rest of the system. When your entire system is full of colored parts, I'd agree you'll struggle to hear differences in cables.

Salk and AVA used to do a speaker cable test where they invited folks to bring speaker cables and see if they make a difference vs their own commodity cables. They don't, not because cables don't make a difference, but because cables don't make a difference in the context of a mid-fi (at best) system.

Again, the thought that a critical part in your system no longer matters due to the use of trafos and lower impedance is magical thinking.

The fact Ralph is free to ruin every thread on cables on this site is also ridiculous.

 

[thedudeabides]

No speculation needed.

With all due respect, statements like the above can come across as arrogant and absolute despite numerous opinions to the contrary. Therein lies the "flash point" for many, myself included. For better or worse, similar to what EW did in the past on this forum. Best.

 

[Salectric]

The fact Ralph is free to ruin every thread on cables on this site is also ridiculous.

The fact Ralph says all tube rectifiers sound the same (when used within their limits and with the same voltage drop) is also ridiculous. But I have given up discussing this with him. He clearly has more time and energy to argue than I do.

 

[Lagonda]

Audiophile budgeting 101 ! Sounds about right to me !

 

[TonyW]

One of the best lines in TV: Kung Fu episode from 1972. Student Caine is talking with his blind Kung Fu master. The master points out the grasshopper at Caine's feet. Startled when the young student sees the grasshopper right by his feet he says, "Old man, how is it you hear the grasshopper at my feet?" To that the blind Kung Fu master says, "Young man, how is it that you do not?"

 

[Republicoftexas69]

One of the best lines in TV: Kung Fu episode from 1972. Student Caine is talking with his blind Kung Fu master. The master points out the grasshopper at Caine's feet. Startled when the young student sees the grasshopper right by his feet he says, "Old man, how is it you hear the grasshopper at my feet?" To that the blind Kung Fu master says, "Young man, how is it that you do not?"

Nice!

 

[Lagonda]

One of the best lines in TV: Kung Fu episode from 1972. Student Caine is talking with his blind Kung Fu master. The master points out the grasshopper at Caine's feet. Startled when the young student sees the grasshopper right by his feet he says, "Old man, how is it you hear the grasshopper at my feet?" To that the blind Kung Fu master says, "Young man, how is it that you do not?"

Most of our Kung Fu masters seem to be deaf, not blind !

 

[TonyW]

A few years back I had a new in career engineer (HR would not let me say young) working for me. He liked to use the term grasshopper. One day I asked him if he knew where that term came from. He paused, thought for a bit and admitted that he did not. I told him about the TV show. That cracked me up but I also felt very old.

The clip of that moment can be found on YT.

 

[Holmz]

Here have a read it's more significant than you think as it involves all processes from ore extraction to drawing the wire.

Rob

Innovations: Copper: Technology & Standards

The early U.S. copper industry, located primarily in the American West (Arizona, Utah, New Mexico, Montana, and Alaska) was restricted to mining very rich copper-containing minerals.

copper.org

Thanks for the link.

However the questions still remain…
1) If the WE is reported to sound so good, then why is it that the counterfeit ones can not be made to sound the same?
2) Is the copper wire different? Or just made using heavier spools now?

 

[Hi-FiGuy]

A few years back I had a new in career engineer (HR would not let me say young) working for me. He liked to use the term grasshopper. One day I asked him if he knew where that term came from. He paused, thought for a bit and admitted that he did not. I told him about the TV show. That cracked me up but I also felt very old.

The clip of that moment can be found on YT.

You need a new HR department.
Also I have the complete series on DVD, yes I am old, do I get sent upstairs for saying old?
My personal favorite was Get Smart, toss in some Rockford Files lol

 

[Robh3606]

Thanks for the link.

However the questions still remain…
1) If the WE is reported to sound so good, then why is it that the counterfeit ones can not be made to sound the same?
2) Is the copper wire different? Or just made using heavier spools now?

Take a look at post 102

You are asking a question that there is no answer too. I come from an aerospace manufacturing background. If you ever looked at the just the magnet wire spec you would be amazed at how many different types there are.

With wire we were required to keep traceability all the way to the parent spool and manufacturer. The manufacturer would then have the trace to the actual foundry and material lot number the wire was drawn from.

Once material is respooled in the commercial world by a distributor it's all lost and there is no requirement to keep the trace. So whatever wire left NOS from a commercial source has lost all trace. So if for some reason you had a foundry that was making a "better quality wire" there is no way to trace back.

That makes the whole process of selecting the wire completely random.

Rob

 

[treitz3]

Hello and good evening to you, ladies and gentlemen of the forum. There has been a bit too much of personal commentary as of late on this thread (by more than one person) and it stops now. A friendly public reminder is that our goal on this forum is to have a friendly place where everyone shares ideas and information without the level of bickering and angst that other forums tend to create.

A snippet of one of our TOS rules (#6) to continue being a member of this forum - Focus on the topic being discussed, rather than the person discussing it.

Your forum administrators rule with a gentle hand. But should the occasion arise where we must take immediate and strong action, we will do so.

Tom

 

[thedudeabides]

Tom,

Good reminder. What I've seen on this thread pales to the personal insults, attacks and innuendos that have occurred on other recent threads of this subjective nature. Not to mention an abundance of passive aggressive behavior. I have taken several "sebaticals" from WBF over the years because I get tired of witnessing grown men behaving like children. And variance from the OP's topic is very common.

I don't care one way or the other. I personally want no part of arguments and altercations. I still think "self policing" is the best option but if you choose to enforce the TOS, please do so in a consistent, judicious manner. Good luck keeping this train on the tracks.

____________________________________________________________________________________________

And IMHO, I find the last sentence at the bottom of your posts, in your role as an "objective" moderator, to be judgemental and inappropriate at best. What's the purpose? If you choose to leave as is, all you are doing is encouraging more contentious, confrontational A v D threads. Just what WBF needs. Best. - I will address this on a different thread, as it is off topic for this one - Tom

 

[treitz3]

Hello, TBA. We don't have a large team that monitors the site 24/7 and is on payroll during that time to ensure that your request will happen 100%. That said, we do not read every post, nor can we. This forum has grown beyond what many ever thought...hence the reason for a new server (along with a great investment).

If ANY member sees something that is in need of attention, please report it and we will deal with it.

For the most part, the members of this forum do self police. That said, we had multiple reports on this particular thread, which put a huge spotlight to the moderating team right here.

Like I mentioned? We do rule with a gentle hand and the team let's things slide (within reason) from time to time but when the reports come in left and right? We do need to take public action. This is the part you all see.

Most of the work is done behind the scenes, so the forum moves along smoothly, without the administrative team being portrayed as something no one wants us to be.....and something we honestly don't want to be.

Thanks for your feedback. Hopefully though, this makes things a little clearer on why sometimes (on the public front), things don't seem so consistent.

Tom

 

[Holmz]

Take a look at post 102

You are asking a question that there is no answer too. I come from an aerospace manufacturing background. If you ever looked at the just the magnet wire spec you would be amazed at how many different types there are.

With wire we were required to keep traceability all the way to the parent spool and manufacturer. The manufacturer would then have the trace to the actual foundry and material lot number the wire was drawn from.

Once material is respooled in the commercial world by a distributor it's all lost and there is no requirement to keep the trace. So whatever wire left NOS from a commercial source has lost all trace. So if for some reason you had a foundry that was making a "better quality wire" there is no way to trace back.

That makes the whole process of selecting the wire completely random.

Rob

I doubt it is random.
The wire material and the insulation are made with repeatable processes.
Traceability is great for post-facto forensics, but one could test the copper purity in the WE cables… for instance.

And it seems there are only hints at what capacitance and inductance should be… generally they should be low… and the inductance and capacitance cannot both be zero.
Capacitance goes up as the wires get close, and the inductance goes down.
If all the geometry is kept constant, then adding a dielectric increases the capacitance proportional to the dielectric constant “k”.
So a higher k seems like it is not going in the direction that we want it to go.

But my questions are more along the lines of how the IC works, rather than which is the best IC.

Along ^those lines^ those AQ/dBS speaker cable (SC) do-hickies, are designed to bias the dielectric, so they either clearly believe that the dielectric polarisation has an effect, or they want us to believe it does.

Again, since Ralph seems determined to repeat the exact same thing over and over, yet he won't answer the simple question: Do you believe PCs and SCs all sound the same?

This is important, because they operate at much lower than 600 ohm impedances. Speakers are 4-8 ohm loads and the industry standard for AC power loads, what most EMI/RFI filters are based on, is a 50 ohm load. Neither AC power or Speakers need to be grounded. Speakers are not, and there's plenty of double insulated components that do not have any ground connection whatsoever.

So if merely dropping the impedance line level cables use from 10k-100k to .6k makes such a major difference and provides the user with magical cable immunity, then SCs and PCs surely all sound the same.
…

I thought that Ralph was talking about ICs, and in particular the balanced AES specification, not power cables and speaker cables.