Cables can make a huge difference...

[Robh3606]

Those who may be in constant disagreement or simply refuse to accept any conflicting viewpoints as plausible are preconditioning themselves to never hear a difference.

Well I have actually measured the cheapest cables you can find. I am talking Radioshack garbage I wouldn't and don't use. WRT frequency response and phase they were better than any speaker. I would say FR is clearly more audible than phase so the question is what exactly are people hearing with cable swaps?

Assuming the more expensive cables are not influencing the FR. Which I would hope would not be the case.

Rob

 

[Lagonda]

Not all recording studios use inexpensive commodity cables. More and more are moving towards using better cables. In fact, I currently have a recording studio demo'ing some cables.

I do think playback systems can retrieve detail the recording studio may not even recognize though.

I owned a commercial studio, Mogami was what my partners with 20 year experience in the business wanted it wired with. I brought expensive high-fi cables in a couple of times, nobody cared for it, just did not sound right to them.

 

[thedudeabides]

Because a whitepaper written 20 years ago says we shouldn't be able to tell a difference; and all amplifiers sound the same if they measure alike under our chosen set of measurements.

Ethan Winer or Julian Hersh?

 

[DaveC]

I owned a commercial studio, Mogami was what my partners with 20 year experience in the business wanted it wired with. I brought expensive high-fi cables in a couple of times, nobody cared for it, just did not sound right to them.

I love it how cable deniers always lump "expensive audiophile" cables together as if the fact some of them suck is an indictment of every cable that costs more than $2.

So if I find an expensive amplifier that sucks, I guess that's an indictment of every single expensive amplifier and they all suck? I mean, if the specs say the amp is good, it's good, and you don't need to spend big money to get those specs, right? Those spending more than $500 on an amp are just fooling themselves!

The thing with cables is, if you have a substandard system and you use good cables it makes it sound worse because the cable isn't adding a ton of warmth and smoothing out the imperfections anymore.

Logic, people, logic... Our audio systems are trying their absolute best to teach us logic and how to see a complex system that's difficult to fully understand. You can only bring a horse to water...

 

[DaveC]

... so the question is what exactly are people hearing with cable swaps?



Rob

Differences in resolution and colorations.


Post #18:

Cables can make a huge difference...

This post is for newbies and hi-fi veterans alike. Cables shouldn't, at least in theory, sound different. From their inception, they were never intended to alter the output signal or be the cause of inadvertent variations. So then, why do they sound different? I've said this before - to many...

www.whatsbestforum.com

 

[Lagonda]

I love it how cable deniers always lump "expensive audiophile" cables together as if the fact some of them suck is an indictment of every cable that costs more than $2.

So if I find an expensive amplifier that sucks, I guess that's an indictment of every single expensive amplifier and they all suck? I mean, if the specs say the amp is good, it's good, and you don't need to spend big money to get those specs, right? Those spending more than $500 on an amp are just fooling themselves!

The thing with cables is, if you have a substandard system and you use good cables it makes it sound worse because the cable isn't adding a ton of warmth and smoothing out the imperfections anymore.

Logic, people, logic... Our audio systems are trying their absolute best to teach us logic and how to see a complex system that's difficult to fully understand. You can only bring a horse to water...

I don't care much for your version of the truth, but i am definitely not a cable denier, cables make a big difference. You are a propagand of cables as equalizers, you mix you little batches of strands and connectors, preferably the ones you represent and sell, and call it the truth My experience in commercial studios tell me Mogami is the studio standard, it also gives a mix engineer or producer a idea of the sound they can expect from a recording chain when they work in different studios. Personally i use cables that sounds good to me in my system, i have auditioned/owned many over the years, yours have never really been on the radar, and your antics in these threads have definitely not made me a believer of your version of the truth.

 

[DaveC]

...i am definitely not a cable denier, cables make a big difference...

...My experience in commercial studios tell me Mogami is the studio standard...

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

 

[mtemur]

Out of curiosity what's the attraction? Metallurgy and insulations are so much better why go with 90 year old salvaged wire?

I don't know why. Maybe it's because of recycling. Maybe WE cables were made from better copper before recycle took off. I can answer your question with another question. What's the attraction of old tubes? Metallurgy and everything is better today but why old stock tubes made for common use are better than today's audiophile tubes?

 

[Robh3606]

Metallurgy and everything is better today but why old stok tubes made for common use are better than today's audiophile tubes?

Process control can make big difference making 100,000 vs I k that would be my take and that can be more important that materials alone. Also some original materials may not be readily available. Cadmium plating was the rage now with environmental concerns it's only used in limited special applications as an example.

Just WAG's on my part. That would be an interesting thing to look into.

Rob

 

[Robh3606]

Differences in resolution and colorations.

Doesn't that imply slight differences in FR/Phase? If the cables are making these differences are they neutral? Are they reactive to the input and output impedances or combinations. Are certain preamps and amps more sensitive to the interaction between the cable source and load?

Rob

 

[DaveC]

Doesn't that imply slight differences in FR/Phase? If the cables are making these differences are they neutral? Are they reactive to the input and output impedances or combinations. Are certain preamps and amps more sensitive to the interaction between the cable source and load?

Rob

I don't think so. I think a lot of it comes down to noise and distortion. I'm not sure how to characterize every single thing we hear. For example warmth... it sounds a lot like even order harmonic distortion, but it's not that. Brightness is similar, it sounds a lot like odd order harmonic distortion, but it's not that either. I think warmth and brightness are both forms of noise, and for brightness I have managed to pin that to triboelectric noise and material impurities, at least in part.

I think warmth is more a result of material properties of the conductor than anything. with impure copper causing more warmth than extremely pure copper. Also, some companies like Jorma have managed to reduce warmth via a high voltage burn-in treatment that is permanent, and Shunyata and Audience are doing something similar. The high voltage burn-in may also have an effect on the dielectric, which is also very audible. I'm not sure how you'd characterize the effects of dielectric absorption and other facets of the interaction between the conductor and dielectric, but I think it's a form of energy storage and release out of time with the original signal.

Then there's energy storage in the form of electric and magnetic fields, or EMF. An inductive SC or PC can cause a smearing of detail by storing and releasing energy via magnetic fields out of time with the original signal. Shields also interact with the EMF and I've found that a shield impinging upon a cable's EMF causes a dull or slow sound, rounding off transients. This isn't because of capacitance, as a comparably capacitive cable without a shield will not exhibit these effects. I think the impingement of the EMF has an effect on the original signal, which makes sense as the signal causes the EMF to form, and thus they are linked, so if you restrict the EMF you may also affect the signal propagation.

I do think some components are more sensitive than others. A passive pre with varying impedance depending on attenuation is the most obvious example. Also, a company started selling interconnect cables that contain active buffers in them. Fairly cheap cables and basic SS buffers, but in some situations it seemed like they made for huge improvements via better impedance matching. So that's evidence that some components may not have the best outputs, as they are obviously very sensitive to load. But if you take a competently designed component it won't help, for example I tested my Sony ES digital component into loads ranging from 10k-100k and couldn't hear any differences at all. In the case a source sounds very different depending on load I'd assume a cable may make more of a difference, otoh you could also say that component has a poorly designed output section.

 

[Atmasphere]

Are all the cable manufacturers aware of this?

Sure doesn't come across that way to me.

Absurd to whom? You bring back fond memories of Ethan Winer.

Ouch!
'Absurd' simply because the reason cables sound different has to do with how they are treated. I've read some pretty crazy stuff about why a certain cable might sound the way it does but that's highly system dependent.

Balanced lines aren't supposed to be treated the same as RCA cables. RCAs generally sound better when better materials and the like are used, IOW the cable itself is doing the heavy lifting. In a balanced line system, the equipment on either end of the cable does the heavy lifting and forces the cable to sound right.

I can't say how many cable manufacturers are aware of this. My exposure to balanced lines was in high school in 1972; I was recruited to play in a local college orchestra. One of our concerts was recorded and I got to hear the direct microphone feed, which was going through about 150 feet of cable. Anyone whose heard a direct mic feed from good mics on headphones knows how real they can sound. This was before Robert Fulton was showing his first interconnect cable which started the whole cable thing.

I don't think it's a bad thing. Ruling out both cables as wrong means we may as well just listen to music on our smartphone speakers at full blast. I don't believe in superfluous claims from cable manufacturers where they suggest performance-specific improvements to YOUR audio system. How do they know? Well, they don't. It would be better if some would include a list of the system chain along with their description of what the cables should sound like in that given configuration.

The good part is the gear easily has the resolution to hear cable problems. The bad thing is that the cable problems exist and no amount of remonstration changes that. While I agree with what you are saying after 'I don't believe?', what precedes that seems in contradiction to the opening comment.

I described the problem. Robert Fulton founded the high end cable industry with his Brown and Gold speaker cables and his interconnect back in the late 1970s. He lived in my town and I met him way back then and had his cables. Then Monster came along and zillions of others after that, some interconnects costing over $1000/foot. But if you have a balanced line system set up properly, then the differences between cables go away and they all sound right (using master tapes as a reference). That means that you don't need to spend any big dollars on cables if your balanced line setup is working (designed) right and it also means that all the RCA cables are going to sound different, some better than others, some worse, from here to kingdom come. That isn't good, so yes, its a bad thing.

 

[DaveC]

Ouch!
'Absurd' simply because the reason cables sound different has to do with how they are treated. I've read some pretty crazy stuff about why a certain cable might sound the way it does but that's highly system dependent.

Balanced lines aren't supposed to be treated the same as RCA cables. RCAs generally sound better when better materials and the like are used, IOW the cable itself is doing the heavy lifting. In a balanced line system, the equipment on either end of the cable does the heavy lifting and forces the cable to sound right.

I can't say how many cable manufacturers are aware of this. My exposure to balanced lines was in high school in 1972; I was recruited to I play in a local college orchestra. One of our concerts was recorded and I got to hear the direct microphone feed, which was going through about 150 feet of cable. Anyone whose heard a direct mic feed from good mics on headphones knows how real they can sound. This was before Robert Fulton was showing his first interconnect cable which started the whole cable thing.


The good part is the gear easily has the resolution to hear cable problems. The bad thing is that the cable problems exist and no amount of remonstration changes that. While I agree with what you are saying after 'I don't believe?', what precedes that seems in contradiction to the opening comment.

I described the problem. Robert Fulton founded the high end cable industry with his Brown and Gold speaker cables and his interconnect back in the late 1970s. He lived in my town and I met him way back then and had his cables. Then Monster came along and zillions of others after that, some interconnects costing over $1000/foot. But if you have a balanced line system set up properly, then the differences between cables go away and they all sound right (using master tapes as a reference). That means that you don't need to spend any big dollars on cables if your balanced line setup is working (designed) right and it also means that all the RCA cables are going to sound different, some better than others, some worse, from here to kingdom come. That isn't good, so yes, its a bad thing.

If anything you think on this is true, then PCs and SCs will also all sound the same as they operate in a much lower impedance environment than even the 600 ohm balanced signal std, and neither of them reference ground.

So do you think SCs and PCs all sound the same?

Last time we went through this you said yes, and then gave an example of a BROKEN POWER CABLE to make your point.

At RMAF, I've also seen an Atmosphere amp with an "audiophile" PC sitting next to it with a flier advertising the cable, but the amp was plugged in using a cheap commodity power cord. Take that for what you will...

 

[ravenacustic]

A few years ago Joe Cohen,The Lotus Group, asked me to try a pair of ICs, I think they were balanced. The cable was his own Prana Wire creation. Not the top cable but in the middle of his line-up. That pair of ICs was so much better than my ICs at the time in every way. Sound stage, realism, tonal weight and body. Amazing. He was selling them at a substantial price reduction because they had been used at a number of shows. I probably should have bought them but I didn’t. They retailed at the time for $10k.

 

[Holmz]

…
Who is dipping wire in oil besides Duelund themselves? They have a silver ribbon with oil-impregnated silk insulation. The oil has a large effect on the sound. Some love it, but some hate it, which is a sign that it's far from neutral.
…

If the oil has an effect, then that means that thing are not exclusively to do with the metal in the wire.

Out of curiosity what's the attraction? Metallurgy and insulations are so much better why go with 90 year old salvaged wire?
…

Teflon or PVC may not be as tasty as cotton to a mouse.
But how do we know which insulation is better?

Is the goal to protect the wire?
or…
To offer some defect on the propagation of the signal around the wire?
or…
To affect the capacitance?

 

[Robh3606]

Teflon or PVC may not be as tasty as cotton to a mouse.
But how do we know which insulation is better?

Is the goal to protect the wire?
or…
To offer some defect on the propagation of the signal around the wire?
or…
To affect the capacitance?

You can't be serious? Which insulation is better? Lets see which one readily absorbs water? I am not going to get into the easily measurable dielectric properties. It's common sense! Since you like cotton why don't you replace all your house wiring with 90 year old recycled cotton insulated wire and than find a UL inspector that will certify the work so you can get your CO?

Rob

 

[Holmz]

You can't be serious?

I actually could be serious…
And I am.
Sorry if it was a trigger.

Which insulation is better? Let’s see which one readily absorbs water? I am not going to get into the easily measurable dielectric properties.

The electrical properties are what likely affect the electrical signal.
Those cables are not drinking up scotch-n-soda, so I am not worried about water being consumed by them.

It's common sense!

Flat Earthers also use common sense to spruik their arguments.
Lets stick to some facts…

Where does the electric field live in a wire or cable carrying a high frequency signal?
A) Inside the wire
B) Inside the insulation
C) Both
D) Somewhere else
F) There is no electrical field

Since you like cotton why don't you replace all your house wiring with 90 year old recycled cotton insulated wire and than find a UL inspector that will certify the work so you can get your CO?

Rob

It was others who brought up Western Electric (WE) wires.

Secondly house wires are carrying 60Hz AC, mostly for power, and not designed to be carrying audio signals.
Some houses were wired actually not using insulated wires, and used insulators, in the early days.

If it was wire for an airplane or race car, then I know what to use.
For an IC or speaker cable let’s stick to discussing the topic calmly.

Why is it that people like old cotton WE cables?
Copper is a pretty stable element, and unless it is somehow “a different copper”, then the main thing different about those cables, and new cables… is mostly the cotton versus the PVC or Teflon.
There are only materials and construction/geometry,
I am assuming that it looks round, so then the main thing different is the insulation.

 

[Robh3606]

The electrical properties are what likely affect the electrical signal.
Those cables are not drinking up scotch-n-soda, so I am not worried about water being consumed by them.

If the insulator absorbs water it's dielectric properties can change with the humidity.

Flat Earthers also use common sense to spruik their arguments.
Lets stick to some facts…

Flat Earthers are people who don't believe in modern science like using better insulations and materials with improved metallurgy.

If it was wire for an airplane or race car, then I know what to use.
For an IC or speaker cable let’s stick to discussing the topic calmly.

The point was that the wire wouldn't pass a safety inspection. You are powering the speakers with an amp. If the insulation breaks down it could short the amp. We are talking salvaged wire. There is a likelihood the insulation could have been damaged during the salvage process which may not be visually obvious.

That's the common sense part. Don't use salvaged wire.

Rob

 

[Lee]

One of the best early moves David Chesky made on the 90s sessions I worked on was to have George Cardas create a long run of microphone cable for us. It greatly elevated future recordings in terms of sound quality.

In my experience in several recording studios, Canare and Mogami are very poor performing cables. Despite some skepticism in the pro community toward the audiophile community, the better studios are moving to better cables and there are many examples recently of them adding Shunyata Research.

 

[Holmz]

If the insulator absorbs water it's dielectric properties can change with the humidity.

Sure a bit, but many homes have some air conditioning or humidity control.

Flat Earthers are people who don't believe in modern science like using better insulations and materials with improved metallurgy.

How is the metallurgy better?
Some pure copper is not alloyed, so unless we are talking crystalline structures or something else… then how is it better?

I am no expert in how wire is made, but I assume that it is drawn or formed in much the same way now as 100 years ago.

The point was that the wire wouldn't pass a safety inspection. You are powering the speakers with an amp. If the insulation breaks down it could short the amp. We are talking salvaged wire. There is a likelihood the insulation could have been damaged during the salvage process which may not be visually obvious.

That's the common sense part. Don't use salvaged wire.

Rob

Aside from whether it is speaker wire or IC cables…
And aside from the safety concerns…

I think we are missing the point of “WHY” the Western Electric in particular is renowned as being good.
- Was it the copper itself?
- Was it the cotton?
- Was it the varnish on cotton?

And the other point that may have been missed is that the insulation may be as, or more, important than the metal.
Especially for ICs.

In some digital wire the insulation may only be protecting the wire. Any stuff happening to the signal will either be decoded correctly, or result in bit errors. If we take the transatlantic undersea cable, then inductance and capacitance matter, but ICs are shorter.

However in terms of the capacitance, and speed of transmission, and the physics of what is happening, then the insulation plays a role.
Whether the capacitance, or speed, matters or not I don’t know… certainly the speed would not seem to be a factor compared to the capacitance. And the capacitance may not be as much of a factor with sources that have lower output impedance.