Cables can make a huge difference...

[DaveC]

Sure a bit, but many homes have some air conditioning or humidity control.



How is the metallurgy better?
Some pure copper is not alloyed, so unless we are talking crystalline structures or something else… then how is it better?

I am no expert in how wire is made, but I assume that it is drawn or formed in much the same way now as 100 years ago.


Aside from whether it is speaker wire or IC cables…
And aside from the safety concerns…

I think we are missing the point of “WHY” the Western Electric in particular is renowned as being good.
- Was it the copper itself?
- Was it the cotton?
- Was it the varnish on cotton?

And the other point that may have been missed is that the insulation may be as, or more, important than the metal.
Especially for ICs.

In some digital wire the insulation may only be protecting the wire. Any stuff happening to the signal will either be decoded correctly, or result in bit errors. If we take the transatlantic undersea cable, then inductance and capacitance matter, but ICs are shorter.

However in terms of the capacitance, and speed of transmission, and the physics of what is happening, then the insulation plays a role.
Whether the capacitance, or speed, matters or not I don’t know… certainly the speed would not seem to be a factor compared to the capacitance. And the capacitance may not be as much of a factor with sources that have lower output impedance.

Having made exactly the same cable with different dielectrics, it makes a significant difference in sound, and there are measurable differences in dielectric absorption, triboelectric noise, mechanical damping and of course propagation speed.

The wire's manufacturing process and material purity also matters, TPC vs OFC vs UPOCC copper all sound different, annealing wire can also make for a difference. I don't know a lot about the intricacies of drawing wire to it's final diameter, but that process does have an effect on the structure and grain boundaries of the wire, forming it into a chevron type structure which is likely responsible for directionality of conventionally drawn wire. I think we can assume the machinery used to draw wire is not exactly the same as it was decades ago, even though the process may be the same in general. Small differences in how the wire is drawn are likely to have an effect on the grain structure of the wire and may account for at least part of the reason why vintage WE wire sounds good.

Also, while some WE wire may be "salvaged" a lot of it was sold as NOS (New Old Stock), and has not been used before. I have used at least a half dozen or so different WE wires and they were all NOS and in surprisingly good shape for their age. I still have some heavy gauge tubular wire I've been meaning to make into a PC, but unfortunately that source dried up well over a decade ago. It's pretty hard to find genuine WE wire anymore. It is good wire but modern UPOCC is better.

 

[Salectric]

I think we can assume the machinery used to draw wire is not exactly the same as it was decades ago, even though the process may be the same in general. Small differences in how the wire is drawn are likely to have an effect on the grain structure of the wire and may account for at least part of the reason why vintage WE wire sounds good.

I recall reading somewhere that in the WW II era, wire was drawn more slowly at the wire mills, and this changed in years afterwards to the present fast drawing process. The same article also said this was one of the reasons that Western Electric wire from the 1940s and 1950s sounds better than wire from later periods. I would provide a link for that article but I can't find it.

In any case, some WE wire from the '40s and '50s sounds great; much of it does not. And unfortunately you can't determine whether a particular roll is the great stuff or not by just looking at it. The only way I know is to listen to it.

 

[thedudeabides]

In any case, some WE wire from the '40s and '50s sounds great; much of it does not. And unfortunately you can't determine whether a particular roll is the great stuff or not by just looking at it. The only way I know is to listen to it.

Just to clarify, I assume you have listened to numerous rolls of this wire as the basis for your statement. How did you locate the various rolls and where were did you find them? And I assume all other system "variables" that would impact the sound and support your conclusion were addressed?

Please understand. No intention to be disparaging or argumentative. Very intrigued by this topic and really curious as to the details. Best.

 

[Atmasphere]

One of the best early moves David Chesky made on the 90s sessions I worked on was to have George Cardas create a long run of microphone cable for us. It greatly elevated future recordings in terms of sound quality.

In my experience in several recording studios, Canare and Mogami are very poor performing cables. Despite some skepticism in the pro community toward the audiophile community, the better studios are moving to better cables and there are many examples recently of them adding Shunyata Research.

If you found the Canare or Mogami to sound different from the Cardas, its likely the associated equipment doesn't/didn't support the tenants of balanced line operation: AES48 and/or low impedance. Those things exist for a reason and cable interaction is definitely one of them!

To put this in perspective, the era of high fidelity was ushered in by balanced lines. Back in the 1950s (when the Golden Age of Stereo recordings were made) the interconnect cables were tin plated wires often with something that looked like rubber for insulation, a braided tin-plated shield and PVC jacket. Yet these cables sounded great on the equipment used at the time and most audiophiles have recordings in their collection that are made using them: RCA Living Stereo, Mercury Living Presence, Decca, EMI and so on. Mogami is an improvement on the original wire, using oxygen free copper conductors and shields with polyethylene dielectrics.

I've found that if you ignore the tenants of balanced operation mentioned above you can hear some dramatic differences between the cables but if the connection standards are in place these go away.

 

[Salectric]

Just to clarify, I assume you have listened to numerous rolls of this wire as the basis for your statement. How did you locate the various rolls and where were did you find them? And I assume all other system "variables" that would impact the sound and support your conclusion were addressed?

Please understand. No intention to be disparaging or argumentative. Very intrigued by this topic and really curious as to the details. Best.

I have purchased 6 or 7 different types of WE wires, all on EBay and nearly all from a particular seller whom I trust. I tried the WE wires as interconnects and speaker cables. I also borrowed an interconnect using WE wire made prior to WW II. All of these wires sound different and only two qualify as great sounding—-the pre-war cable and one from the early 1950s. The latter sounds the best and I bought 75’ of it which I am now using in interconnects and crossover wiring.

 

[DaveC]

If you found the Canare or Mogami to sound different from the Cardas, its likely the associated equipment doesn't/didn't support the tenants of balanced line operation: AES48 and/or low impedance. Those things exist for a reason and cable interaction is definitely one of them!

To put this in perspective, the era of high fidelity was ushered in by balanced lines. Back in the 1950s (when the Golden Age of Stereo recordings were made) the interconnect cables were tin plated wires often with something that looked like rubber for insulation, a braided tin-plated shield and PVC jacket. Yet these cables sounded great on the equipment used at the time and most audiophiles have recordings in their collection that are made using them: RCA Living Stereo, Mercury Living Presence, Decca, EMI and so on. Mogami is an improvement on the original wire, using oxygen free copper conductors and shields with polyethylene dielectrics.

I've found that if you ignore the tenants of balanced operation mentioned above you can hear some dramatic differences between the cables but if the connection standards are in place these go away.

You keep posting the same thing over and over and over again. Are you ok?


If anything you think on this is true, then PCs and SCs will also all sound the same as they operate in a much lower impedance environment than even the 600 ohm balanced signal std, and neither of them reference ground.

So do you think SCs and PCs all sound the same?

Last time we went through this you said yes, and then gave an example of a BROKEN POWER CABLE to make your point.

 

[Robh3606]

How is the metallurgy better?
Some pure copper is not alloyed, so unless we are talking crystalline structures or something else… then how is it better?

I am no expert in how wire is made, but I assume that it is drawn or formed in much the same way now as 100 years ago.

Here have a read it's more significant than you think as it involves all processes from ore extraction to drawing the wire.

Rob

Innovations: Copper: Technology & Standards

The early U.S. copper industry, located primarily in the American West (Arizona, Utah, New Mexico, Montana, and Alaska) was restricted to mining very rich copper-containing minerals.

copper.org

 

[Argonaut]

To put this in perspective, the era of high fidelity was ushered in by balanced lines. Back in the 1950s (when the Golden Age of Stereo recordings were made) the interconnect cables were tin plated wires often with something that looked like rubber for insulation, a braided tin-plated shield and PVC jacket. Yet these cables sounded great on the equipment used at the time and most audiophiles have recordings in their collection that are made using them: RCA Living Stereo, Mercury Living Presence, Decca, EMI and so on.

Conversely we might also speculate … how much better might those recordings have turned out had the studios in the ‘Golden Age’ had access to something like bog standard Cardas cable , at the time ?

 

[DaveC]

Yes exactly Dave, are you ok yourself ?

Seems like I've managed to make you really angry. I'm sorry. You keep replying to my posts with nastiness and snark. If you need help, don't hesitate to reach out to your health care provider.

 

[Lagonda]

Seems like I've managed to make you really angry. I'm sorry. You keep replying to my posts with nastiness and snark. If you need help, don't hesitate to reach out to your health care provider.

Yes i need a doctor, i have the chuckles, you guys are so funny ! Have you reported me yet for all the personal attacks, like you threatened on PM ?

 

[Hear Here]

Duelund speaker cable is not a rip-off of WE cable, not is it a fake. They describe it as "A wire born of the desire to improve upon legendary vintage Western Electric WE12GA cable, but using Duelund's philosophy of uncompromising craftsmanship and construction, sonic splendour, palpability and transparency."

Take what you like of that, but it is a cable highly recommended by the legendary Jim Smith and others, so good enough for me. At it's price point, I don't think you'll find better. In fact probably not at ANY price point within reason!

 

[Lee]

If you found the Canare or Mogami to sound different from the Cardas, its likely the associated equipment doesn't/didn't support the tenants of balanced line operation: AES48 and/or low impedance. Those things exist for a reason and cable interaction is definitely one of them!

To put this in perspective, the era of high fidelity was ushered in by balanced lines. Back in the 1950s (when the Golden Age of Stereo recordings were made) the interconnect cables were tin plated wires often with something that looked like rubber for insulation, a braided tin-plated shield and PVC jacket. Yet these cables sounded great on the equipment used at the time and most audiophiles have recordings in their collection that are made using them: RCA Living Stereo, Mercury Living Presence, Decca, EMI and so on. Mogami is an improvement on the original wire, using oxygen free copper conductors and shields with polyethylene dielectrics.

I've found that if you ignore the tenants of balanced operation mentioned above you can hear some dramatic differences between the cables but if the connection standards are in place these go away.

We used balanced cables throughout at the time for the comparison and all equipment allowed true balanced operation. Differences in sound quality exist between different balanced cables.

 

[Synaxis]

Duelund speaker cable is not a rip-off of WE cable, not is it a fake. They describe it as "A wire born of the desire to improve upon legendary vintage Western Electric WE12GA cable, but using Duelund's philosophy of uncompromising craftsmanship and construction, sonic splendour, palpability and transparency."

Take what you like of that, but it is a cable highly recommended by the legendary Jim Smith and others, so good enough for me. At it's price point, I don't think you'll find better. In fact probably not at ANY price point within reason!

Mike at Suncoast did a YT video shoot out of cables if I remember correctly and one of them was the WE if people want to try and listen for themselves.


I know, I know you can't tell too much from YT but I could easily detect a difference when he did a similar amp shoot-out.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Try listening without cables , its extremely boring.

Fyi i ve got some extraterrestial made cables straight out of a S4 ( Area 51 ). Flying saucer.
They completely stripped one

Normally 5 million $$ per meter but this month only 15.99 .

While supplies last.

 

[Atmasphere]

Conversely we might also speculate … how much better might those recordings have turned out had the studios in the ‘Golden Age’ had access to something like bog standard Cardas cable , at the time ?

No speculation needed- I've run all the types of equipment used in the Golden Age- Ampex 351-2, Neumann microphones, RCA mic preamps, WE mic preamps right to the Scully lathe with Westerex mastering electronics and 3D cutter head. If the equipment conformed to the tenants of balanced operation, IOW AES48 and low impedance (line level is 600 Ohms) you wouldn't hear any difference at all. I've run this comparison many times.

We used balanced cables throughout at the time for the comparison and all equipment allowed true balanced operation. Differences in sound quality exist between different balanced cables.

You can have balanced equipment and yet not support AES48 or the low impedance aspect. When that is so, then the cable construction can have a big effect on the sound; quite the opposite of the intention of balanced operation.

 

[Lagonda]

Duelund speaker cable is not a rip-off of WE cable, not is it a fake. They describe it as "A wire born of the desire to improve upon legendary vintage Western Electric WE12GA cable, but using Duelund's philosophy of uncompromising craftsmanship and construction, sonic splendour, palpability and transparency."

Take what you like of that, but it is a cable highly recommended by the legendary Jim Smith and others, so good enough for me. At it's price point, I don't think you'll find better. In fact probably not at ANY price point within reason!

The silver in cotton was the only silver i heard that was not somewhat bright, but it was colored to my ears, with a sameness to the sound, preferred their copper version in my system.

 

[Argonaut]

No speculation needed-

Except that you havn’t run the same comparison with balanced cables made up of Cardas wire ( as one possible example) connecting the equipment that you list , against whatever balanced cable your “Golden Age Studios” were using at that time ! Or are you saying that you have ?

 

[Lee]

You can have balanced equipment and yet not support AES48 or the low impedance aspect. When that is so, then the cable construction can have a big effect on the sound; quite the opposite of the intention of balanced operation.

Is it your claim that if any XLR cable meets these specifications, then they will sound exactly alike?

 

[Salectric]

Duelund wire has colorations (like all wire). If you like them, you will be happy. If you don’t, you move on to something else. An unshielded pair of Duelund 16g wires with Cardas GRCM RCA plugs sounds quite nice and makes a very cost-efficient line-level interconnect. But it doesn’t sound like a good WE cable using the same plugs.

 

[Lee]

Try listening without cables , its extremely boring.

Fyi i ve got some extraterrestial made cables straight out of a S4 ( Area 51 ). Flying saucer.
They completely stripped one

Normally 5 million $$ per meter but this month only 15.99 .

While supplies last.

Lol. I think you are taking the "Air dialectric" approach to the extreme.