Cables can make a huge difference...

[sbo6]

Vintage Western Electric wire is often far superior to modern copper wire. It makes especially good speaker and power cables. Certified Audiophile Grade, assuming good design and connectors for sure. So I disagree with your characterization of the cables used in that time period as "chedapo", but it's true they were not "voiced" to sound a certain way, or cost more than they believed was necessary. The recording process is of course lossy to some degree, but good cables can minimize losses and thus enable superior reproduction of the recording on a capable system.

There's no doubt you can get decent cables at any price point. As you spend more, everything else being equal, you increase resolution and decrease coloration. The laws of diminishing returns apply just as much as anything else, for example a Porsche GT3 RS at $300k isn't 10x as fast as a Mazda Miata, and it's easy to argue a Miata is the worlds best sports car, yet for some reason, some people go for the GT3 RS. Personally, I think it's snake oil. The GT3 isn't faster, it's just propaganda. They both burn gas and have tires!

First you stated, "Not all recording studios use inexpensive commodity cables. More and more are moving towards using better cables. In fact, I currently have a recording studio demo'ing some cables". Then you stated, " "Vintage Western Electric wire is often far superior to modern copper wire. It makes especially good speaker and power cables."

So if vintage WE wire is so good, why is it not currently used in studios and including by you? In the 50s you'd be lucky if it was even balanced.

WRT laws of diminishing returns and your Mazda versus GT3 RS analogy, you're stating the 150HP Mazda can be argued to be the world's best sports car and the GT3 RS is snake oil with 500HP and 0 to 60 in under 3 seconds, I'll have some of what you're having. Also, and while it's true the law of diminishing returns applies to audio gear and cars, the reason the Porsche is $250K versus the 30K Miata is not only specs, it's features, status, handling, comfort, and most of all the overall experience.

 

[Holmz]

…
So if vintage WE wire is so good, why is it not currently used in studios and including by you? In the 50s you'd be lucky if it was even balanced.

Maybe a good question is, “Why is that old cable good?”

… WRT laws of diminishing returns and your Mazda versus GT3 RS analogy, you're stating the 150HP Mazda can be argued to be the world's best sports car and the GT3 RS is snake oil with 500HP and 0 to 60 in under 3 seconds, I'll have some of what you're having. Also, and while it's true the law of diminishing returns applies to audio gear and cars, the reason the Porsche is $250K versus the 30K Miata is not only specs, it's features, status, handling, comfort, and most of all the overall experience.

Why do we always need to have car analogies?
And a cable it more like a skateboard or bicycle, than an engine... being method for passive transport of ‘power’.

 

[morricab]

As other have said / will say, I don't believe in all these cable claims. All one needs is a "good" cable with decently attached end terminals of "good" quality. That's what is used in professional recording studios, etc. If it's good enough to get the music onto a master to send to streaming and pressing houses, it's surely good enough for us.

Or better (since no cable however costly will ever improve the sound), ditch the cables as far as possible by putting as many modules as feasible (streamer, DAC, DSP, phono stage, preamp, headphone amp, etc) into a single enclosure. Save cost and untidiness and eliminate all the noise or whatever you seem to hear with cables and you're done!

 

[Hear Here]

Vintage Western Electric wire is often far superior to modern copper wire. It makes especially good speaker and power cables. Certified Audiophile Grade, assuming good design and connectors for sure.

First you stated, "Not all recording studios use inexpensive commodity cables. More and more are moving towards using better cables. In fact, I currently have a recording studio demo'ing some cables". Then you stated, " "Vintage Western Electric wire is often far superior to modern copper wire. It makes especially good speaker and power cables."

So if vintage WE wire is so good, why is it not currently used in studios and including by you?

Although, as far as I know, WE are not currently producing cables, their speaker cable recipe (tinned copper in oil and cotton) is being made by Duelund. This is the speaker cable I use and I see no good reason for spending more on speaker cables than these. I have more "fancy" cables including solid silver ones, but the flexibility and ease of routing inconspicuously further adds to the attraction of Duelund.

 

[Hear Here]

Certainly. PAD is the abbreviation for Purist Audio Design.

Thanks for the clarification. Now Google can find these cables, but they are still in the "priced for audiophiles" category. A pair of your 4 m Corvus Diamond speaker cables would cost as much as my two mono amplifiers. I'll stick with my Duelund's 12 gauge Western Electric design at £27 per m plus terminals + VAT

 

[audiopro92]

Wow. Arrogance and intolerance to the extreme, which happens here and on ASR. Neglecting the sound is as bad as neglecting the science IMO, and the only common denominator is that if you do not agree with the prevailing world (forum) viewpoint you are to be attacked and denigrated. I dare say it is not so black and whit on either forum.

What I wrote was true. It was not intended to hurt anyone's feelings.

 

[Salectric]

Although, as far as I know, WE are not currently producing cables, their speaker cable recipe (tinned copper in oil and cotton) is being made by Duelund. This is the speaker cable I use and I see no good reason for spending more on speaker cables than these. I have more "fancy" cables including solid silver ones, but the flexibility and ease of routing inconspicuously further adds to the attraction of Duelund.

True vintage WE wire can be quite special. I know since I have some. However, not all old WE wire sounds good; there is a wide variety sold on EBay and I am not talking about counterfeits. For example, the red jacketed WE wire that Jeff Day was so enthusiastic about in his Positive Feedback essays is not the good sounding stuff; that wire dates from the 1970s and perhaps 80s. The really good sounding WE wire is much older, made in the 1940s and 50s.

Duelund wire sounds better than the WE wire recommended by Jeff Day but it falls well short of the best WE wire.

 

[audiopro92]

I agree, but I also think it's a major issue if folks that think X doesn't matter and everyone who thinks X matters is simply a fool or has poor equipment in a forum dedicated to discussing X.

It's like going on ASR and trying to tell everyone there they are fools for thinking X doesn't matter and berating them for their lack of hearing acuity and inferior equipment.

Nothing good is going to come of either situation and imo it's the height of arrogance and intolerance to do so. Personally, I don't go on ASR or Audioholics and try to reform cable deniers. I don't think cable deniers should come on this forum and try to tell everyone here they are idiots and have inferior equipment. They may not be so blunt about it, but that's really what it comes down to.

It goes both ways, imo we don't have to tolerate cable deniers and have every thread on a cable forum devolve into the old, tired cable debate. It's not arrogant or intolerant to ask for that. If you want a cable debate, start your own thread and maybe some will choose to participate. I am absolutely sure I will not, I don't want to be around it and I don't want to participate in that.

I very much agree with this stance.

There are members on ASR who believe that parts don't matter. Parts. Seriously. The internals inside that make it possible for the audio equipment to work at all. When asking for recommendations about audio equipment, you are told that their standard set of measurements will tell you everything you need to know. It's audibly transparent, or its not. There is no in between. And don't you dare write about detailed listening impressions while including a list of what made up the chain in the system you auditioned; and were impressed with. Using descriptive language to paint a picture of a real-world experience is primitive subjectivism; and the classic 8/10 trails or so would be sufficient to prove you are simply hearing differences that don't exist; rather these differences are created by your imagination and subject to perpetual confirmation bias. Why?

Because a whitepaper written 20 years ago says we shouldn't be able to tell a difference; and all amplifiers sound the same if they measure alike under our chosen set of measurements. Don't agree? When then, you're a troll. The poster after you has a system worth a hundred bucks that will be much better than what you have. You're a show off because you have something more expensive than me. You're just a fool who invested in audio jewelry rather than solid engineering. Again, parts don't matter. Just move a few cheap parts around that that will fix things. Add dozens of relays in series and a switching power supply has no impact on the sound. Here's a link to a paper which suggests I'm wrong and you're right... etc.

Audio enthusiasts and audio professionals like us (on this forum) for the most part are not interested in trying to convince the other side that the grass is greener here. We don't belittle or attempt to discredit the other side because we are busy listening to our excellent audio systems or talking about things that really matter, like compromises in engineering and circuit design that influences sound quality; or a resolving system that could be made even better with helpful suggestions. And best of all, for the most part, those who think the little things make a difference get along, rather than quarrel.

 

[Synaxis]

It goes both ways, imo we don't have to tolerate cable deniers and have every thread on a cable forum devolve into the old, tired cable debate. It's not arrogant or intolerant to ask for that.

Hi Dave,

I agree the respect needs to go both ways for sure.

But I take it a step further - and I'm not saying my view point is right - but why even discuss cables? Nothing good is going to come from it.

I'm never going to convince deniers to use their ears, and they are never going to convince me that only "broken" cables sound different. So out of respect to their viewpoint and my blood pressure I won't even get into those debates any longer. I also admit my viewpoint is my opinion and accept it as that.

It's like my mother-in-law. She is on the opposite political spectrum as I am and she is a hateful nut who's a victim of everything. I simply shut her down and don't engage when she tries to bait me and start a political discussion (which is every freaking minute). Oh, and I drink when she's around to try and help. LOL (j/k)

I think people's beliefs are so deep on cables it's real tough to keep a conversation polite other than "I accept we both have different viewpoints".

Just my useless two cents worth. There is nothing any of us is ever going to say in this conversation to change someones mind, so why bother.

 

[DaveC]

Hi Dave,

I agree the respect needs to go both ways for sure.

But I take it a step further - and I'm not saying my view point is right - but why even discuss cables? Nothing good is going to come from it.

I'm never going to convince deniers to use their ears, and they are never going to convince me that only "broken" cables sound different. So out of respect to their viewpoint and my blood pressure I won't even get into those debates any longer. I also admit my viewpoint is my opinion and accept it as that.

It's like my mother-in-law. She is on the opposite political spectrum as I am and she is a hateful nut who's a victim of everything. I simply shut her down and don't engage when she tries to bait me and start a political discussion (which is every freaking minute). Oh, and I drink when she's around to try and help. LOL (j/k)

I think people's beliefs are so deep on cables it's real tough to keep a conversation polite other than "I accept we both have different viewpoints".

Just my useless two cents worth. There is nothing any of us is ever going to say in this conversation to change someones mind, so why bother.

Yes! On a forum dedicated to discussing cables, we don't need to discuss the validity of cables to begin with. It makes no sense and those who come into a cable forum telling everyone they are delusional is a bit off the deep end. I don't understand the mentality. I don't go on ASR and try to change their minds, I don't go to flat-earth forums and argue it's round. It seems like cable deniers are on a Don Quixote style personal crusade to save us all from ourselves.

 

[DaveC]

Although, as far as I know, WE are not currently producing cables, their speaker cable recipe (tinned copper in oil and cotton) is being made by Duelund. This is the speaker cable I use and I see no good reason for spending more on speaker cables than these. I have more "fancy" cables including solid silver ones, but the flexibility and ease of routing inconspicuously further adds to the attraction of Duelund.

Vintage WE wire (there's many different kinds) is actually superior to Duelund ime. Duelund makes some nice sounding wire if it works for your application, but it's quite colored.

 

[sbo6]

Vintage WE wire (there's many different kinds) is actually superior to Duelund ime. Duelund makes some nice sounding wire if it works for your application, but it's quite colored.

And a wire dipped in oil is not?

 

[DaveC]

First you stated, "Not all recording studios use inexpensive commodity cables. More and more are moving towards using better cables. In fact, I currently have a recording studio demo'ing some cables". Then you stated, " "Vintage Western Electric wire is often far superior to modern copper wire. It makes especially good speaker and power cables."

So if vintage WE wire is so good, why is it not currently used in studios and including by you? In the 50s you'd be lucky if it was even balanced.

WRT laws of diminishing returns and your Mazda versus GT3 RS analogy, you're stating the 150HP Mazda can be argued to be the world's best sports car and the GT3 RS is snake oil with 500HP and 0 to 60 in under 3 seconds, I'll have some of what you're having. Also, and while it's true the law of diminishing returns applies to audio gear and cars, the reason the Porsche is $250K versus the 30K Miata is not only specs, it's features, status, handling, comfort, and most of all the overall experience.

Because WE hasn't made wire for decades? It's vintage and not a ton left, you can't get all kinds in all different gauges and it's relatively expensive because of it's rarity. We've even seen it being counterfeited, there's fake WE vintage wire out there.

You completely missed the point of my car analogy. I was taking the role of cable deniers. Trying to say a Miata is as good as a GT3 RS is like a cable denier trying to tell everyone their commodity copper cable is just as good as anything else, and it's just as ridiculous.

 

[DaveC]

And a wire dipped in oil is not?

No idea what you're on about...

Who is dipping wire in oil besides Duelund themselves? They have a silver ribbon with oil-impregnated silk insulation. The oil has a large effect on the sound. Some love it, but some hate it, which is a sign that it's far from neutral.

From your retaliatory laugh emoji it seems like you're a cable denier too. Why are you here posting in this thread exactly?

 

[sbo6]

No idea what you're on about...

Who is dipping wire in oil besides Duelund themselves? They have a silver ribbon with oil-impregnated silk insulation. The oil has a large effect on the sound. Some love it, but some hate it, which is a sign that it's far from neutral.

From your retaliatory laugh emoji it seems like you're a cable denier too. Why are you here posting in this thread exactly?

Personal in nature comments deleted.

WRT cables, I do believe they make a difference, and I certainly don't owe you any explanation why I'm posting. If you're so interested as to why, go back and figure it out.

Now back to the regularly schedule program.

 

[mtemur]

A couple of my friends decided to try WE cables around 10 years ago and found out most of them are fake. I think by now, after 10 years, almost all bulk WE cables listed could be fake.

Anyway I heard Shun Mook power cords, interconnects and speaker cables made from genuine WE cables and they sound good, very dynamic and lively without being harsh.

 

[audiopro92]

Yes! On a forum dedicated to discussing cables, we don't need to discuss the validity of cables to begin with. It makes no sense and those who come into a cable forum telling everyone they are delusional is a bit off the deep end. I don't understand the mentality. I don't go on ASR and try to change their minds, I don't go to flat-earth forums and argue it's round. It seems like cable deniers are on a Don Quixote style personal crusade to save us all from ourselves.

Agreed.

And many who have likely never owned or auditioned a particular product, cable, etc. believe they have the answers because they are parroting the first highlighted response that google gave them. Or because someone on the internet with a background in that field said so.

It is the mark of an educated mind to entertain a thought without accepting it - Aristotle

Those who may be in constant disagreement or simply refuse to accept any conflicting viewpoints as plausible are preconditioning themselves to never hear a difference.

 

[Robh3606]

A couple of my friends decided to try WE cables around 10 years ago and found out most of them are fake. I think by now, after 10 years, almost all bulk WE cables listed could be fake.

Out of curiosity what's the attraction? Metallurgy and insulations are so much better why go with 90 year old salvaged wire?

It's wire not drivers and even the supposed modern drivers are not as good as the ones made 90 years ago is a bit hard to swallow.

Rob

 

[Iamrael]

Lots to agree with there. Your profile sates you use "PAD Cables", but I'm confused as to what these are. Could you enlighten us please? Thanks

Why do we always need to have car analogies?
And a cable it more like a skateboard or bicycle, than an engine... being method for passive transport of ‘power’.

Perhaps even a better analogy could be the car or bicycle tire/wheel?

 

[DaveC]

Out of curiosity what's the attraction? Metallurgy and insulations are so much better why go with 90 year old salvaged wire?

It's wire not drivers and even the supposed modern drivers are not as good as the ones made 90 years ago is a bit hard to swallow.

Rob

+1, I don't know either. I do think UPOCC copper is better but the reason why decades old wire sounds so good is a mystery to me. Same with the drivers, they can sound amazing, to the point the Japanese copy them exactly.

Perhaps even a better analogy being car or bicycle tires/wheels?

Haha, yeah, that's a topic we (bike and car guys) can argue about endlessly too!