Calling Adjust+ experts...

tima

Industry Expert
Mar 4, 2014
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#1
I have v. limited experience.

What do you make of this:

2019-04-05_1-36-27.jpg

Wrt to the phase angle, my first notion was: is this out of phase, as if the cartridge was wired incorrectly? But I don't know enough about the tool to know.
 

bazelio

Well-Known Member
Sep 27, 2016
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#2
Are you sure you didn't swap any wires in connecting the tonearm to the cart? If so, can you measure out to +3?

Here's a screenshot from the video. It shows wild variation in phase just within 1 degree of change. To be honest, I've never seen that behavior when measuring with an oscilloscope.

Screenshot_20190405-052329.png
 
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MPS

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2016
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41
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#3
Wait... need to check my documentation.

Hmm.. based on available information I would further go CCW with azimuth.
 
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tima

Industry Expert
Mar 4, 2014
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#5
Here we are, out to +3 degrees. Comments most appreciated.

I would never expect to turn a cartridge more than a degree, much less beyond 3.

2019-04-09_5-42-54_3degrees.jpg

Thanks in advance!
 

Brian Walsh

Well-Known Member
Jul 8, 2011
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#6
This is about what i expected, although it's more severe than most. Try adjusting other parameters, even tracking force, to see if you can reduce the angle. Otherwise your options are obvious, and if the cartridge is new I would return it.
 
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May 30, 2010
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#7
I(...) Wrt to the phase angle, my first notion was: is this out of phase, as if the cartridge was wired incorrectly? But I don't know enough about the tool to know.
Considering that you are just looking at the phase of a crossover residual, coming from a mechanical movement relative to the "other side" that should not exist, I am not astonished that the signal from this coil is out of phase. But my comment is only intuitive (with an asymmetrical condition if the magnet approaches one coil it moves away from the other) , I am not analyzing in detail how the signal is generated - I am not an expert! :)

Edit - two minutes with google after dinner increased my expertise - picture taken from a1.png https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...setting-azimuth-with-a-pc-and-soundcard.1905/
 
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bazelio

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#8
To be honest, I'm not so sure I trust the tool. Again, I've never seen such wild phase variations on an oscilloscope within just 0.5 degrees of each other. Secondly, one of the channels shows -40 dB crosstalk. But there's no MC cart on Earth capable of that.

On the crosstalk imbalance, that's ok in my opinion. You could use this cart at +3.5 or so. But that's a bit unusual and extreme so the other parameters should be re-checked. I suspect zenith should be readjusted for minimum phase offsets with azimuth at zero, and then you should redo all azimuth measurements again. Lastly, is anti-skate set properly? I could see too much or too little anti-skate force also affecting these measurements.
 
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Brian Walsh

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#9
To be honest, I'm not so sure I trust the tool. Again, I've never seen such wild phase variations on an oscilloscope within just 0.5 degrees of each other. Secondly, one of the channels shows -40 dB crosstalk. But there's no MC cart on Earth capable of that.

On the crosstalk imbalance, that's ok in my opinion. You could use this cart at +3.5 or so. But that's a bit unusual and extreme so the other parameters should be re-checked. I suspect zenith should be readjusted for minimum phase offsets with azimuth at zero, and then you should redo all azimuth measurements again. Lastly, is anti-skate set properly? I could see too much or too little anti-skate force also affecting these measurements.
Yes, this is what I alluded to above. I've seen a few cartridges approaching -40 dB crosstalk.

As I said, +3 to +3.5 degrees for minimum phase error and lowest crosstalk is unusual to say the least. I would be looking to reduce that by using the other measures if not replacing the cartridge.
 
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bazelio

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Sep 27, 2016
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#10
For MC, anything greater than 25dB is superb and anything exceeding 30dB is a unicorn cartridge. To accurately measure, you need to probe right at the cartridge pins with a calibrated AC millivolt meter. This is how cart manufacturers do it. A couple measurements, a little math, and you get the answer.

Adjust+ is not giving the right answer. It might be fine to get relative measurements. That is, if Adjust+ says a particular setting is better than another, that's probably going to hold up after any measurement. But the absolute value (e.g. 40dB of channel separation) is simply not accurate. I really don't know what to make of the phase measurements out of the tool. I'm going to talk to a buddy who is a tech at Soundsmith, and find out what he's seen with the hundreds or maybe thousands of carts that have come through for retipping, etc. He's measured more carts than all of us combined, and uses accurate methods.

It's too soon to return this cartridge. @tima if you redo some of the other setup parameters and then come back to azimuth adjustment, let us know how it goes.
 
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Brian Walsh

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Jul 8, 2011
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#11
I disagree with your assertion that "anything exceeding 30dB is a unicorn cartridge." I see a fair number in the 30 to 35 dB range. 25 dB is acceptable.

I respect Soundsmith's experience, but remember they are behind their own product, the Cartwright. I use Adjust+ and AnalogMagik.
 

MPS

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2016
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Finland
#12
Would be very interesting to see where about is the optimum setting, 3-4 degrees CCW?
Crosstalk could be optimized with antiscate adjustment but it shouldn't affect the phase angle.
This should be from Lyra Titan i:
 
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May 30, 2010
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#13
For MC, anything greater than 25dB is superb and anything exceeding 30dB is a unicorn cartridge. To accurately measure, you need to probe right at the cartridge pins with a calibrated AC millivolt meter. This is how cart manufacturers do it. A couple measurements, a little math, and you get the answer.

Adjust+ is not giving the right answer. It might be fine to get relative measurements. That is, if Adjust+ says a particular setting is better than another, that's probably going to hold up after any measurement. But the absolute value (e.g. 40dB of channel separation) is simply not accurate. I really don't know what to make of the phase measurements out of the tool. I'm going to talk to a buddy who is a tech at Soundsmith, and find out what he's seen with the hundreds or maybe thousands of carts that have come through for retipping, etc. He's measured more carts than all of us combined, and uses accurate methods.

It's too soon to return this cartridge. @tima if you redo some of the other setup parameters and then come back to azimuth adjustment, let us know how it goes.
Sorry, I can't understand your comment. Separation is an intrinsically relative value (residual compared to output) not an absolute value. I have no reason to believe that the Adjust+ is not measuring it correctly. Phono preamplifiers are linear at a specific frequency.
 
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bazelio

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#14
If we measure a cartridge that Adjust+ says has 40 dB of channel separation using accurate measurement methods employed by cartridge manufacturers, then the same "40 dB" cart will probably measure less than 30 dB. No MC cart has 40 dB of separation.
 
May 30, 2010
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#15
If we measure a cartridge that Adjust+ says has 40 dB of channel separation using accurate measurement methods employed by cartridge manufacturers, then the same "40 dB" cart will probably measure less than 30 dB. No MC cart has 40 dB of separation.
The shown graph probably comes from a defective cartridge - the separation figure that is specified is taken at a balanced correct symetrical setting, something that does not show in the graphs presented - the lines should cross. This data must be interpreted, see picture (around 28dB separation). a1.jpg
 

bazelio

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Sep 27, 2016
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#16
Considering that you are just looking at the phase of a crossover residual, coming from a mechanical movement relative to the "other side" that should not exist, I am not astonished that the signal from this coil is out of phase. But my comment is only intuitive (with an asymmetrical condition if the magnet approaches one coil it moves away from the other) , I am not analyzing in detail how the signal is generated - I am not an expert! :)

Edit - two minutes with google after dinner increased my expertise - picture taken from View attachment 50259 https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...setting-azimuth-with-a-pc-and-soundcard.1905/
Did you note who posted that picture?
 

tima

Industry Expert
Mar 4, 2014
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the Upper Midwest
#17
Recommended anti-skate = .2g. Cartridge tried within recommended VTF range. Regardless of possible further adjustments, an azimuth at 3+ degrees is a physically extreme angle (1.5+ imo) and, despite electrical properties, I would not want to play my records with it? Would you?
 
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bazelio

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Sep 27, 2016
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#18
Do you have a calibrated Fozgometer by chance? I'm curious if it will track the crosstalk results of the Adjust+. Which cart is this by the way?
 

tima

Industry Expert
Mar 4, 2014
1,917
1,451
390
the Upper Midwest
#19
I do have a calibrated Fozgometer. It kinda tracked with Adjust+ with a L/R differential of ~7-9 at the angles I tried - could never get closer. Didn't write those down; just got to the point where I felt the effort was going nowhere. I did show the first graph to Dr. Feickert who also said to go out to +3°; upon looking at the second graph he suggested showing the graph to the manufacturer along with a return. I will say he was quite responsive and helpful and I truly appreciate that. The cartridge is new; at this point I prefer not to identify.

Thank you bazelio for your help - much appreciated; also to Brian, micro, MPS and others on this thread. Though it may take awhile, I will report back with whatever resolution this comes to.
 
May 30, 2010
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#20
Did you note who posted that picture?
Yes! :)
Recommended anti-skate = .2g. Cartridge tried within recommended VTF range. Regardless of possible further adjustments, an azimuth at 3+ degrees is a physically extreme angle (1.5+ imo) and, despite electrical properties, I would not want to play my records with it? Would you?
Never! Again IMHO the cartridge is defective.

Edit: just saw next posting - it seems I am not alone.
 

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