Can a Technics SL-1200G challenge the state of the art?

[microstrip]

I know nothing about either one of the direct drive turntables. I only commented because framer gave a review of the SAT and then decided to buy the K3. Who knows the reasons?

Peter,

Well, I know and anyone reading reviews on the net can easily know. But I find curious that people who systematically complain against and even denigrate the high-end audio press and reviewers, even assuming they don't read them since long and tell us they do not want to read, ask for information on reviews and reviewers. Is it just for gossip?

 

[PeterA]

Peter,

Well, I know and anyone reading reviews on the net can easily know. But I find curious that people who systematically complain against and even denigrate the high-end audio press and reviewers, even assuming they don't read them since long and tell us they do not want to read, ask for information on reviews and reviewers. Is it just for gossip?

Who knows? You could ask the people you are thinking about directly your questions.

 

[Loheswaran]

I know nothing about either one of the direct drive turntables. I only commented because framer gave a review of the SAT and then decided to buy the K3. Who knows the reasons?

I’m pretty sure they both sound great and the nature of anything made requires marketing, however, at this level of price (waaaay outta my league) there’s an awful lot of hyperbole. When TT’s were truly in their prime they had the greatest designers and innovators. Silly budget R&D units with dedicated teams and tooling. Not the cottage industry that occupies high end in small numbers now. What is annoying is the epiphany that necessitates present day manufacturers to claim they invented the wheel to justify extortionate and inflated prices. The SAT from one perspective- like it or not is a hot rod SP10R in a very fancy plinth with some lovely materials to the n’th degree. I have long loved DD’s from my university DJ’ing days and even have my own FB page (sadly whilst it has members nobody posts ). Maybe I’m having an industry wide moan brought in part by Brexit (in the UK) but HiFi has become too expensive and is going to hurt itself in the long term because high end has shrunk and great audio needs to be both widely available and affordable

 

[Jeffy]

I know nothing about either one of the direct drive turntables. I only commented because framer gave a review of the SAT and then decided to buy the K3. Who knows the reasons?

Only Fremer’s hair stylist knows the answers!

 

[Lsipes1965]

I'm a big fan of genuine SORBOTHANE and use it under all of our electronics.

But take care in using SORBOTHANE anywhere near turntables. My experience is that it tends to suck the life out of the music... YMMV.

Just the opposite here. I picked up the Kevin Gray 2016 cut Yes Fragile last month and had my wits startled. Better dynamics than my OG.

 

[microstrip]

Only Fremer’s hair stylist knows the answers!

No, his reviewer friends also know!

 

[microstrip]

I'm a big fan of genuine SORBOTHANE and use it under all of our electronics.

But take care in using SORBOTHANE anywhere near turntables. My experience is that it tends to suck the life out of the music... YMMV.

It is a funny hobby. Some people will tell just the opposite - for example the fabulous Forsell turntable had a (well desguised ...) SORBOTHANE suspension and I would not consider it sucks the life out of music!

My advice - try everything. Do not rule something out just because someone did not have success with it.

 

[mtemur]

The SAT from one perspective- like it or not is a hot rod SP10R in a very fancy plinth with some lovely materials to the n’th degree.

Maybe it’s not just based on the SP10R - it is an SP10R. The rest consists of a plinth with three feet, a MinusK, and a thick platter mat.

In my opinion, neither SAT nor any other high-end company has the capacity, knowledge, or resources to improve upon Technics’ engineering. They can only tweak it, just as we DIYers do. The end result may sound better than stock SP10R, I don’t argue about that but you can do it yourself too, you don’t have to buy it from SAT. That’s what I think.

 

[Atmasphere]

I'm a big fan of genuine SORBOTHANE and use it under all of our electronics.

But take care in using SORBOTHANE anywhere near turntables. My experience is that it tends to suck the life out of the music... YMMV.

That is my experience also- Sorbothane is too soft on its own. It is useful for damping the platter though. So if a harder pad is on top of it that could be better if done properly.

It is a funny hobby. Some people will tell just the opposite - for example the fabulous Forsell turntable had a (well desguised ...) SORBOTHANE suspension and I would not consider it sucks the life out of music!

My advice - try everything. Do not rule something out just because someone did not have success with it.

Sorbothane as a suspension is very different from using it as a platter pad!

 

[Loheswaran]

Maybe it’s not just based on the SP10R - it is an SP10R. The rest consists of a plinth with three feet, a MinusK, and a thick platter mat.

In my opinion, neither SAT nor any other high-end company has the capacity, knowledge, or resources to improve upon Technics’ engineering. They can only tweak it, just as we DIYers do. The end result may sound better than stock SP10R, I don’t argue about that but you can do it yourself too, you don’t have to buy it from SAT. That’s what I think.

I completely agree - harry weisfeld from VPI basically said as much about the technics motor (you can say this of all the 70’s top end DD’s). I actually think that the LP12 was the cheapest way to get a good sound from what was initially a small company with quite simple tooling in which a generic synchronous motor was bought in - far easier to control the writing industry in the UK. Gerrards and Lencos are obvious replinth candidates but the SP10? To the tune of 140k? I don’t take umbrage with the cost of the NVS - the Sirius - the Caliburn - the Derenville - but a modified deck with that much of a price uplift - not for me. If someone says ‘it’s all about the music’ I’d be using an iPod - material considerations do enter the equation

 

[microstrip]

That is my experience also- Sorbothane is too soft on its own. It is useful for damping the platter though. So if a harder pad is on top of it that could be better if done properly.

Sorbothane as a suspension is very different from using it as a platter pad!

Following an indication in another thread of member Cobra213 I have now read a very well carried review of the Nagra HD preamplfier HV. See what is said about its suspension: (my bold)

The column consists of a metal column with threaded ends for the adjustable foot at the lower end and the coupling ring at the upper end. The coupling ring tightens the ear attached to the chassis around the column. The bottom of the coupling ring and the polymer piece at the top of the ear adopt a tapered profile to allow the chassis to center itself on the column. A small rubber O-ring prevents metal-to-metal contact with the ear. The underside of the ear is placed on a large sorbothane ring whose damping properties have been determined after listening sessions.

 

[SONDEKNZ]

Following an indication in another thread of member Cobra213 I have now read a very well carried review of the Nagra HD preamplfier HV. See what is said about its suspension: (my bold)

The column consists of a metal column with threaded ends for the adjustable foot at the lower end and the coupling ring at the upper end. The coupling ring tightens the ear attached to the chassis around the column. The bottom of the coupling ring and the polymer piece at the top of the ear adopt a tapered profile to allow the chassis to center itself on the column. A small rubber O-ring prevents metal-to-metal contact with the ear. The underside of the ear is placed on a large sorbothane ring whose damping properties have been determined after listening sessions.

I agree that SORBOTHANE is superb for supporting electronics.

We use SORBOTHANE feet under everything that is pure electronics.

If I had suitable form factors, I too would place SORBOTHANE bushes between each PCB and its fixture.

Sorbothane as a suspension is very different from using it as a platter pad!

Interesting observation.

Whilst I found SORBOTHANE to suck the life from our LP12 in a support role - that is, anywhere near the plinth or top-plate - I might experiment with a thin SORBOTHANE layer between the LINN platter and our BOSTON Carbon Mat. It might be interesting...

 

[displayname]

My guess is at the price range this is THE table

I just started to reread through this thread before asking anyone felt this way when comparing the 1200G to others in the price range. Glad to hear it. I'm not one to tweak much, and I think 5K-ish would be my limit. Obviously so many others play well above that on this forum, but it's great to hear!

 

[dctom]

I finally recveived my Supatrac Blackbird 9 inch last month having ordered at the end of april last year. A fascinating beast quite awkward to handle compared to the more traditional arms I have owned such as; linn, sme and kuzma. I have installed it on my Technics 1200G and it is playing LPs with great aplomb.
Straight away an obvious benefit is its ability to track more cleanly. Some old albums that suffered from extreme siblance in places are mitigated now, I guess the remaining siblance is due to record wear.
It is more dynamic than the 1200's stock arm, faster transients and greater slam.

Three years ago I moved house and downsized the system - from a Kuzma XL DC with 4pt /Atlas cartridge and a second Kuzma ref 313 arm.
This produced excellent results however my digital system began to challenge and eventually equal the analogue output. I purchased the Technics as a nod to nostalga as I still had 2000 LPs having sold close on a 1000.

I was surprised by the ability of the Technics to more or less match the Kuzma and better it in tonality, it did not quite match the low end grunt though. That could have been down to no longer having a dedicated room with IB woofer.

Although I no longer have the Kuzma I could compare the Technics to my digital configuration having, recently, been further improved with the addition of a Grimm MU1 streamer. However I found I was still playing digital most of the time.

Which brings me to the Supatrac, - LPs from the analogue domain, in my case, mostly late 1950, 60 and 70s Jazz but also a mixture of other, pre digital, genres benefit from the Blackbird's brilliant resolution.
These albums now, generally, have greater depth, excitment and what I would describe as "life" than the digital equivalent.

Having owned; Linn LP12, SME 20 and 30 and Kuz ref XL DC turntables I would say that the Technics with Supatrac definitely challenges high end TTs.
I have Airtight and Shelter cartridges which work well in the Supatrac. Presumably Fremer's K3/SAT takes analogue to the nth degree but for someone such as myself I am satisfied that I am getting top notch analogue reproduction with the Technics/Supa.

Unfortunately the supplied rt angle DIN tone arm cable does not fit into the technics arm mount recess - have been using a borrowed generic straight DIN connector. Have contacted Richard about this. Still sounds excellent.

 

[Sablon Audio]

That’s a great read Tom and a pleasing outcome. I took a slightly different approach, choosing the new SL1300G since I was likely to replace the arm, so same platter and motor as sl1200g but with improved controller though less evolved chassis and aluminium tonearm. The saving went into Funk Boing feet / APM platter - an excellent combo - and an ex-dem Wand Master 10.3” arm which still needs to be fitted. Unsurprisingly it has a Sablon power cord with ncf iec and a special low capacitance MM optimised interconnect for the MP500 cartridge. Is quite enjoyable already with the stock arm.

 

[dctom]

That’s a great read Tom and a pleasing outcome. I took a slightly different approach, choosing the new SL1300G since I was likely to replace the arm, so same platter and motor as sl1200g but with improved controller though less evolved chassis and aluminium tonearm. The saving went into Funk Boing feet / APM platter - an excellent combo - and an ex-dem Wand Master 10.3” arm which still needs to be fitted. Unsurprisingly it has a Sablon power cord with ncf iec and a special low capacitance MM optimised interconnect for the MP500 cartridge. Is quite enjoyable already with the stock arm.

Thanks Mark

I bought the 1200G a few years ago - I did not intend to change the arm but heard Richard demoing the Supatrac on a Trchnics and thought it would be a good move. I do prefer the look of the 1300 without the speed controls.

 

[ChrisMag2099]

I'm know I'm late to the party on this discussion.

I've got a few tables: SL-1210G, Avid Sequel w/an Avid Nexus arm and an Acutus Classic with a Kuzma 4 point 9" arm. Previously, I've owned many others - a ProJect X8, Mofi Ultradeck, Rega P9 and SL-1210GR.

I really like the G. It's a meaningful step up from the GR. Does it compete with my Avid tables? No, but in its price range, I'd rather have it than anything else I've used. It's just a workhorse table that sounds really good.

 

[dionisofun]

I'm know I'm late to the party on this discussion.

I've got a few tables: SL-1210G, Avid Sequel w/an Avid Nexus arm and an Acutus Classic with a Kuzma 4 point 9" arm. Previously, I've owned many others - a ProJect X8, Mofi Ultradeck, Rega P9 and SL-1210GR.

I really like the G. It's a meaningful step up from the GR. Does it compete with my Avid tables? No, but in its price range, I'd rather have it than anything else I've used. It's just a workhorse table that sounds really good.

Have you tried any other tonearm on your 1200G?

 

[ChrisMag2099]

Have you tried any other tonearm on your 1200G?

Not yet. Someday maybe. I'd love to try one of Korf's ceramic arms on it if I can get a suitable armboard. I do run one of Korf's headshells and an Origin Live Strata platter mat on it, and found both to be improvements over stock parts, and also over the Jelco HS-25 magnesium alloy headshell.

I sold an amp to a local doctor who runs a Rega on his 1200 Mk2. He thought it was a meaningful upgrade over the stock aluminum arm. Also, Jeff Dorgay did an article about the topic of 1200 upgrades here: https://www.tonepublications.com/analogaholic/sl-1200-upgrades-sound-hifi/

Jeff runs a SME3009 on a SL-1100. He seems pleased with the result. I've never listened to that table when I've been at his place. Usually, we listen to his SME Model 20 or Luxman PD-191A.

I have run a few different arms on my Avid Sequel. I started with a RB2000, went to the Kuzma and then to the titanium Avid Nexus when I moved the Kuzma to the Acutus. Certainly, the tonearm is a big part of the resulting sound on that table.

 

[Holmz]

Not yet. Someday maybe. I'd love to try one of Korf's ceramic arms on it if I can get a suitable armboard. I do run one of Kork's headshells and an Origin Live Strata platter mat on it, and found both to be improvements over stock parts, and also over the Jelco HS-25 magnesium alloy headshell.

I sold an amp to a local doctor who runs a Rega on his 1200 Mk2. He thought it was a meaningful upgrade over the stock aluminum arm. Also, Jeff Dorgay did an article about the topic of 1200 upgrades here: https://www.tonepublications.com/analogaholic/sl-1200-upgrades-sound-hifi/

Jeff runs a SME3009 on a SL-1100. He seems pleased with the result. I've never listened to that table when I've been at his place. Usually, we listen to his SME Model 20 or Luxman PD-191A.

I have run a few different arms on my Avid Sequel. I started with a RB2000, went to the Kuzma and then to the titanium Avid Nexus when I moved the Kuzma to the Acutus. Certainly, the tonearm is a big part of the resulting sound on that table.

I got a Korf HS a while back and it was a game changer.