Can digital get to vinyl sound and at what price?

[Doc76]

I am just going to say my vinyl sounds way better tonight as my internet is down.

I always prefer vinyl over digital, but I have excellent digital (Taiko).

 

[PeterA]

Hello Audire,

Not only do I agree with "The table, the arm, the cart, the record, are all a part if it. Each may place you in a different venue to hear the same recording!"

In agreement, may I add to the appreciated physicality of vinyl may I add 'liner notes' to the sensual and intellectual input of the vinyl listening experience please? I'm trained as a cultural contextualist and believe that the written commentary, particularly at its best, adds a genuine dimension of insight into the period in which the music was either created, performed/interpreted or both. This, too, is an aspect of vinyl that does not exist in my experience of streaming. ( and the print is so small on CD notes as to be functionally irrelevant --without benefit of a magnifying glass.

While I'm happy that streaming keeps people linked to music, my strong preference remains vinyl, for the reasons you have mentioned and more. I'm a musician who had put up my instrument for a variety of reasons. My dear friend and audio buddy put together a system that's so natural sounding that I felt the music in my heart and picked up my instrument again.

That was NOT a result of digital playback. And, while I muse that streaming and digital are likely to continue improving, I have a suspicion that my inspiration to resume my direct involvement in instrumental performance would never have occurred without vinyl, and I will Always feel a debt of loyalty and appreciation.

Very Best Wishes and happy Holidays,
David

I appreciate these sentiments cdk84. I remember well you telling me after a shared listening experience at my place that you had decided to take up the guitar again. I suspect you will have more musical insight living with your new turntable and wonderful system and not having to rely on visits to my place to listen to vinyl.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Nothing more to really tell. I told people that I could hear a difference and proved it. I believe it was the song, "Spanish Harlem" that was the test song and I was listening to a system that I was unfamiliar with. They switched the source via a remote control behind my back, so I was truly blind as to what I was hearing.

I nailed the differences every time. No one in the room could figure out how I did it, but when I explained to them (in detail and pointing out where and when it occurred) the changes that I heard, then some of them in the room picked up on the differences too. The copy made the pop, clicks and ticks of the LP recording stand out more and this was the main difference I heard. To me, the two were distinguished and easily identifiable.

In general, they basically sounded the same and the differences were negligible.

Why I heard what I heard is within some of the subsequent posts.

Tom

I think it would be good to try to be a bit precise.

There's a claim here that if you have a digital audio file, and make a copy of it, that copy will sound different than the original.

You are trying to support this claim by referring to a blind test between a CD, and a ripped file of this CD.

1) Ripping an audio CD is not the same thing as copying a file.
2) You have no data about how the test was conducted, so we have no way of knowing if the two sources were even level matched, if they were played back through the same DAC and amp, if there were others in the room who knew what were playing and could influence you, etc etc.


If copying data were so error prone that we couldn't copy two digital audio files and expect them to be identical, you and I would not be able to have this conversation on this forum. Then I am sure there are some who believe that they will sound different DESPITE being identical copies from a data perspective. Then we are in flat earth territory.

 

[ssfas]

Well, I don't use the internet for my digital. Fortunately, because I don't have vinyl as a backup source, if the internet's down.

I have vinyl backup for when the internet goes down. Unfortunately with my home automation, when there internet goes down I can't turn the lights on and off.

 

[Lagonda]

I have vinyl backup for when the internet goes down. Unfortunately with my home automation, when there internet goes down I can't turn the lights on and off.

Most music sounds better when listening in darkness anyway ! If you can find your turntable of coarse !

 

[ssfas]

Most music sounds better when listening in darkness anyway ! If you can find your turntable of coarse !

Fortunately it only happens every few months for an hour or two, at night. I had to change my supplier because our local telephone exchange was having a major upgrade from copper to fibre and at one point we lost internet for 3 days. That was a problem. We already had Virgin Fibre routed to outside our house, so we switched over, it took 2 hours and they did it within a few days of calling.

It's scary to see that copper ethernet comes into your property through a hair-sized cable, and we have all those fancy cables afterwards.

 

[DasguteOhr]

I think it would be good to try to be a bit precise.

There's a claim here that if you have a digital audio file, and make a copy of it, that copy will sound different than the original.

You are trying to support this claim by referring to a blind test between a CD, and a ripped file of this CD.

1) Ripping an audio CD is not the same thing as copying a file.
2) You have no data about how the test was conducted, so we have no way of knowing if the two sources were even level matched, if they were played back through the same DAC and amp, if there were others in the room who knew what were playing and could influence you, etc etc.


If copying data were so error prone that we couldn't copy two digital audio files and expect them to be identical, you and I would not be able to have this conversation on this forum. Then I am sure there are some who believe that they will sound different DESPITE being identical copies from a data perspective. Then we are in flat earth territory.

exact audio copy has created a database of users. There you can see how accurate your copy is. The program announces the result at the end. Of course you can't say whether it's perfect, but you get a cross-section of many users with the same CD.it shows data error and dc offset additionally.

 

[Kingrex]

What about this as a test.
Rip a CD onto a regular oll desktop and onto a spinning drive. Then copy the file onto a SS flash.

Now, use the same CD and rip it to something such as a high end server. Then copy the file to the same SS flash

Assume no compression was used. WAV files.

The 2 files should be bit perfect. And lets asume they say they are. What if they sound different. Or do you think its impossible for them to sound different.

Lets now also consider 1 of the files was compressed. Then unfolded to WAV when sent to the SS flash drive. Again. Both files are bit perfect. Is it possible they sound different?

Someone has to have the tools to do this. Does Taiko have ripping software? My server does not. Its Linux and fussy. I don't want to load DB Poweramp onto it.

And why is it people like DBPoweramp so much. Is there any sonic gain. Or just the file gets some metadata.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Most music sounds better when listening in darkness anyway

Do you think darkness actually makes the music sound better? Or do you mean that in darkness it is easier to concentrate on whatever sound is there?

 

[sigbergaudio]

What about this as a test.
Rip a CD onto a regular oll desktop and onto a spinning drive. Then copy the file onto a SS flash.

Now, use the same CD and rip it to something such as a high end server. Then copy the file to the same SS flash

Assume no compression was used. WAV files.

The 2 files should be bit perfect. And lets asume they say they are. What if they sound different. Or do you think its impossible for them to sound different.

Lets now also consider 1 of the files was compressed. Then unfolded to WAV when sent to the SS flash drive. Again. Both files are bit perfect. Is it possible they sound different?

Someone has to have the tools to do this. Does Taiko have ripping software? My server does not. Its Linux and fussy. I don't want to load DB Poweramp onto it.

And why is it people like DBPoweramp so much. Is there any sonic gain. Or just the file gets some metadata.

First of all that's not a good test to determine of copying a file makes a difference. To test that, it would make sense to ..copy a file. Your test compares CD ripping to two different computers, not copying files.

So I would suggest something like this:
Rip a song from a cd to a high end server
Copy that file from the high end server to an old laptop with a spinning disk

Do an ABX test of the two files.


To your question "If we assume two files are bit perfect / identical, do I think it's impossible for them to sound different?"

If you play them back through the same audio chain and on the same system, then yes. Any differences in sound would necessarily be due to something else (audio playback chain), not the files themselves - as they are by definition identical.

 

[Kingrex]

First of all that's not a good test to determine of copying a file makes a difference. To test that, it would make sense to ..copy a file. Your test compares CD ripping to two different computers, not copying files.

So I would suggest something like this:
Rip a song from a cd to a high end server
Copy that file from the high end server to an old laptop with a spinning disk

Do an ABX test of the two files.


To your question "If we assume two files are bit perfect / identical, do I think it's impossible for them to sound different?"

If you play them back through the same audio chain and on the same system, then yes. Any differences in sound would necessarily be due to something else (audio playback chain), not the files themselves - as they are by definition identical.

This makes not sense. Now your listening to a high end server vs an old laptop. And the ripping process should make 0 difference if the resultant end files are bit perfect to each other??? Correct? A bit perfect file is bit perfect.

What I am questioning are bits/bits. If something reads bit perfect, is it really an identical file that will play identical to any other file from any other method of creation that reads the same bit perfect. The point being, can a file be degraded, yet still be measured as bit perfect.

In order to get the hardware out of the way, I would want to see the manipulated files on the same drive, played through the same system. Do they sound the same. If they do not, why. They came from the same source. If they do, then great. That takes a little load off my brain as I have ripped over 2000 CD to a spinning WD Red drive over the years via a general use desktop with DB Poweramp. It bothers me to think all those files might have been better processed if they were ripped through a server and onto a SS drive. If however the files could be sent to a SS drive and attached to my sever with 0 degradation in sound quality, then great. I have no issues. Yet, why could I hear the difference on the ABBA song when the CD was processed pretty much as I stated above. It does not make sense. It should not be if the files are all bit perfect per DB Poweramp.

 

[wil]

Do you think darkness actually makes the music sound better? Or do you mean that in darkness it is easier to concentrate on whatever sound is there?

I don’t think light, or it’s absence, has any influence on sound waves! But it certainly does affect our senses and so our experience of music.

One thing I’ve noticed time and time again is that when I close my eyes it increases the focus but reduces the soundstage. Looking down or up also changes the experience.

 

[sigbergaudio]

This makes not sense. Now your listening to a high end server vs an old laptop. And the ripping process should make 0 difference if the resultant end files are bit perfect to each other??? Correct? A bit perfect file is bit perfect.

I just don't understand why you want to complicate the experiment with ripping from a CD to begin with, why not just take any audio file, make a copy of it, and compare?

CD Ripping aka reading an audio stream from a CD Player is a way more complicated process than just taking a file on a computer and making a copy of it. But sure, if you can get a perfect ripping process that results in a bit by bit identical file both times, then sure, we can use those files.

The point being, can a file be degraded, yet still be measured as bit perfect.

No.

In order to get the hardware out of the way, I would want to see the manipulated files on the same drive, played through the same system. Do they sound the same. If they do not, why. They came from the same source. If they do, then great. That takes a little load off my brain as I have ripped over 2000 CD to a spinning WD Red drive over the years via a general use desktop with DB Poweramp. It bothers me to think all those files might have been better processed if they were ripped through a server and onto a SS drive. If however the files could be sent to a SS drive and attached to my sever with 0 degradation in sound quality, then great. I have no issues.

If you have some 20,000 songs saved as files on your computer, you can rest assured that they can be copied a hundred times over (to WD Red drives, to SS drives, to USB sticks, to whatever you want), and they will still sound exactly the same when replayed through the same audio chain.

Yet, why could I hear the difference on the ABBA song when the CD was processed pretty much as I stated above. It does not make sense. It should not be if the files are all bit perfect per DB Poweramp.

You'd have to elaborate on exactly what you were able to hear the difference with and how this test was conducted for me to really comment on that. But if you heard a difference between two identical files that were copied, the difference was due to some change or difference in the audio chain, not the files.

 

[DHT4ME]

As a retired engineer who worked in R&D for several major consumer electronics manufacturers and has designed and produced several tonearms + turntables as well as digital equipment i have a different perspective.
I see both systems as sonically dominated by resonances of different natures that leave a particular type of sonic signature

Analog is dominated by acoustic resonances where every material, shape, cartridge and alignment, mass and material to material junction has a unique resonant signature that imparts character. In my opinion only the lathe that cut the master would have the least contribution to the pressing and even then the pressing is a result of the lathe signature. My belief is that a technically “perfect” playback setup would be fairly lifeless. The tables people like have a synergistic composition of material resonances.

Digital is dominated by the resonant artifacts of the sampling frequency, clock errors, RF noise, power supply noise, etc.
These resonances tend to not be consonant with the music and the only way to deal with them is to eliminate or mitigate them as there is no way to treat them like the analog counterparts. Technology and manufacturing is eliminating most digital issues but for the most part we are stuck with the redbook Fs that will impart a signature even with apodizing filters to eliminate the harmonics of the Fs.

If we stop to think about it, even measured distortion is a harmonic resonance that is measured by harmonic order and magnitude.

Knowing these differences it’s best to accept that these are 2 vastly different approaches that will probably always be dominated by different resonant domains whose signature will differentiate the 2 approaches as the implementations mature and converge on perfection.

 

[bonzo75]

Do you think darkness actually makes the music sound better? Or do you mean that in darkness it is easier to concentrate on whatever sound is there?

There are no reflections in the dark.

 

[Rensselaer]

"Can digital get to vinyl and at what price"? Seems the thread has deviated some.

 

[Lagonda]

Do you think darkness actually makes the music sound better? Or do you mean that in darkness it is easier to concentrate on whatever sound is there?

I used to listen with dimmed lights, you focus more on hearing when other senses are not mingling, now i waste my time and focus on reading/posting on WBF ! Sometimes when one of my favorite albums is playing, i actually put down my iPad and focus, last night i listened to a early release copy of "Sticky Fingers" and marveled at the fantastic lyrical/musical skills of early Stones !

 

[bonzo75]

One thing I’ve noticed time and time again is that when I close my eyes it increases the focus but reduces the soundstage. Looking down or up also changes the experience.

We had one person reporting his glasses came in the way of soundstage. Your eyelids do too…if they are open there is more dispersion of the sound so bigger stage. In your case, if you wear glasses while eyes are open, it might countercancel

 

[Lagonda]

We had one person reporting his glasses came in the way of soundstage. Your eyelids do too…if they are open there is more dispersion of the sound so bigger stage. In your case, if you wear glasses while eyes are open, it might countercancel

And you get the absolute best sound when you are "gobsmacked " and sit drooling with a open mouth in the darkness !

 

[Gregadd]

As a retired engineer who worked in R&D for several major consumer electronics manufacturers and has designed and produced several tonearms + turntables as well as digital equipment i have a different perspective.
I see both systems as sonically dominated by resonances of different natures that leave a particular type of sonic signature

Analog is dominated by acoustic resonances where every material, shape, cartridge and alignment, mass and material to material junction has a unique resonant signature that imparts character. In my opinion only the lathe that cut the master would have the least contribution to the pressing and even then the pressing is a result of the lathe signature. My belief is that a technically “perfect” playback setup would be fairly lifeless. The tables people like have a synergistic composition of material resonances.

Digital is dominated by the resonant artifacts of the sampling frequency, clock errors, RF noise, power supply noise, etc.
These resonances tend to not be consonant with the music and the only way to deal with them is to eliminate or mitigate them as there is no way to treat them like the analog counterparts. Technology and manufacturing is eliminating most digital issues but for the most part we are stuck with the redbook Fs that will impart a signature even with apodizing filters to eliminate the harmonics of the Fs.

If we stop to think about it, even measured distortion is a harmonic resonance that is measured by harmonic order and magnitude.

Knowing these differences it’s best to accept that these are 2 vastly different approaches that will probably always be dominated by different resonant domains whose signature will differentiate the 2 approaches as the implementations mature and converge on perfection.

In lay terms, both approach reality from a different angle. Neither ever gets there.