Can digital get to vinyl sound and at what price?

[microstrip]

exactly. You have been caught red handed too many times. Already convicted multiple times.

As they say, the dogs bark, but the caravan goes on ... Stereo and great digital will happily go on in WBF ...

 

[wil]

From what I have read, Ron is extremely careful to qualify that he is talking ONLY about high resolution stored files and NOT streaming. Al M. seems to strongly prefer the sound of physical CDs to streaming. These two data points suggest to me that streaming has a long way to go. And yet, we all stream lots of data and think nothing of it.

On the Taiko thread users are reporting streaming and files to often be close to equal. This has been my (limited) experience in comparing the two as well. This is something Taiko has been and is dedicating their tech to.

 

[Lee]

I can not agree more. That also reflects my experience with recording or mastering engineers. They're not famous or best engineers around but it is important to understand how they approach sound quality in general. They use printer usb cables for A/D and D/A converters, don't care about ASAPI drivers, bit perfect, dithering, oversampling etc. Their "better" means a software with more options.

I don't think it was like this in the past. IMHO convenience offered by digital technology caused it. Quality and convenience inversely correlated.

So true. We once were involved in an ASO recording. The staff recording engineers were using really cheapo Rat Shack interconnects and I insisted they use some Black Cat cables I had at the time and they were blown away by the improvement it made.

 

[Lee]

On the Taiko thread users are reporting streaming and files to often be close to equal. This has been my (limited) experience in comparing the two as well. This is something Taiko has been and is dedicating their tech to.

I am not even sure you need the Taiko for that. I experience the same thing on my dCS gear.

The killer tweak was noise reduction on my router and then hard-wired to an Ansuz PowerSwitch.

 

[Al M.]

On the Taiko thread users are reporting streaming and files to often be close to equal. This has been my (limited) experience in comparing the two as well. This is something Taiko has been and is dedicating their tech to.

As I said before, streaming CAN be done right.

My beef is with the usual mediocre, synthetic sounding streaming, to which I very much prefer physical disc playback (I also prefer that to often compromised playback of local files).

So when Peter says,
"Al M. seems to strongly prefer the sound of physical CDs to streaming.",

this is true insofar as the typical streaming goes. Yet it does not hold for ALL streaming.

 

[bonzo75]

So when Peter says,
"Al M. seems to strongly prefer the sound of physical CDs to streaming.",

this will be true in most cases. No one is arguing against that. People are talking about the pointlessness as streaming is good and for convenience too while for quality and trying I and changing physical media they use LPs.

 

[microstrip]

(...) this is true insofar as the typical streaming goes. Yet it does not hold for ALL streaming.

IMO we should stick our discussions to the better streaming examples, not the ambiguous "typical" .

No one addressing vinyl is referring to the typical vinyl, either equipment or recordings, being sold at shopping malls.

 

[wil]

IMO we should stick our discussions to the better streaming examples, not the ambiguous "typical" .

No one addressing vinyl is referring to the typical vinyl, either equipment or recordings, being sold at shopping malls.

Good point. This is the “what’s best” forum after all.

 

[ScottK]

Good point. This is the “what’s best” forum after all.

What's best...hummm. Humans often strive for "what's best". But as in most things, as this thread reveals, it's subjective even with objective measures. For example Joe, an olympic gold medalist, beat Peat by .01seconds in the free style. Would anyone of us not be enviable of Pete's performance? Would we even think it some how inferior?

 

[Al M.]

Good point. This is the “what’s best” forum after all.

True in one sense. On the other hand, you first have to get to "the best", and for that it is useful to point out the lesser examples from which to learn.

I am afraid that it is mediocre streaming that partially gives digital a bad name these days. Those who complain about an artificial or synthetic sound from digital often appear to do so on the basis of less optimal streaming (and they are right in that!), but simply haven't experienced better digital.

 

[hopkins]

I am afraid that it is mediocre streaming that partially gives digital a bad name these days. Those who complain about an artificial or synthetic sound from digital often appear to do so on the basis of less optimal streaming (and they are right in that!), but simply haven't experienced better digital.

What do you mean by "mediocre streaming"?

 

[PeterA]

IMO we should stick our discussions to the better streaming examples, not the ambiguous "typical" .

No one addressing vinyl is referring to the typical vinyl, either equipment or recordings, being sold at shopping malls.

Could you give a few examples of the vinyl and streaming packages you think we should be discussing?

 

[PeterA]

True in one sense. On the other hand, you first have to get to "the best", and for that it is useful to point out the lesser examples from which to learn.

I am afraid that it is mediocre streaming that partially gives digital a bad name these days. Those who complain about an artificial or synthetic sound from digital often appear to do so on the basis of less optimal streaming (and they are right in that!), but simply haven't experienced better digital.

Al, could you give a few examples of what you would consider "better digital"?

 

[microstrip]

Could you give a few examples of the vinyl and streaming packages you think we should be discussing?

No one is discussing packages - just addressing the formats. Surely I think about the level of performance of those I have listened and prefer - dCS Vivaldi, Nagra HD DAC and Kondo in digital, the TechDas AF1+, the Calliburn Continuum , SME30 or EMT927 in vinyl.

 

[Al M.]

What do you mean by "mediocre streaming"?

Al, could you give a few examples of what you would consider "better digital"?

Mediocre streaming has the sound characteristics I described, a timbre that is a bit artificial, synthetic and plasticky -- presumably due to poor management of RF noise or other interfering factors. Better digital is more natural sounding.

An example: high-quality CD playback -- preferably with good reclocker between CD transport and DAC -- may give you a cello with wooden tone, more like in real life (or in competent analog playback). In mediocre streaming of the same cello recording the wooden tone is replaced by an unpleasantly synthetic, "cheap" one. Once you have heard the comparison, as I did, the difference is immediately obvious. Obviously, high-quality steaming should give you the same wooden tone.

 

[PeterA]

No one is discussing packages - just addressing the formats. Surely I think about the level of performance of those I have listened and prefer - dCS Vivaldi, Nagra HD DAC and Kondo in digital, the TechDas AF1+, the Calliburn Continuum , SME30 or EMT927 in vinyl.

Well now, that is quite a list of gear. Not typical at all, not even by WBF standards. I wonder how many people discussing the topic of the thread live with such exalted equipment. Those turntables are unusual, even here. This stuff is far from the "shopping mall" gear you alluded to.

IMO we should stick our discussions to the better streaming examples, not the ambiguous "typical" .

No one addressing vinyl is referring to the typical vinyl, either equipment or recordings, being sold at shopping malls.

 

[Lee]

I wonder if we are looking at this argument in a way that will never get solved. That is the hardware view. Turntable devotees know the greatness of LP. Digital devotees know the musicality of a good file properly played back.

I have a more positive take… I feel we should be Switzerland. If there is a good analog recording, get the LP. If there is a good digital recording, get the CD or ideally SACD or high rez file.

Of course, this all assumes a decent mastering.

And maybe, if there is a really well done tape, then that is perhaps best of all.

 

[Rexp]

I wonder if we are looking at this argument in a way that will never get solved. That is the hardware view. Turntable devotees know the greatness of LP. Digital devotees know the musicality of a good file properly played back.

I have a more positive take… I feel we should be Switzerland. If there is a good analog recording, get the LP. If there is a good digital recording, get the CD or ideally SACD or high rez file.

Of course, this all assumes a decent mastering.

And maybe, if there is a really well done tape, then that is perhaps best of all.

Don't forget the digital recordings that sound better on vinyl.

 

[hopkins]

I am listening to "The Cosmic Scene" as I write:

The Cosmic Scene - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

It's a damn good recording (Columbia 30th St studios, 1958) and the CD version is very good:

Duke Ellington's Spacemen - The Cosmic Scene

Consultez des crédits, des avis, des pistes et achetez 2007 CDla référence de "The Cosmic Scene" sur Discogs.

www.discogs.com

I have no idea how the vinyl sounds, and I suspect I would have to spend a small fortune in analog gear to top what I am listening to now. I prefer to pursue the route I have been on (investing in digital, and following a "minimalistic" approach) rather than go in a completely different direction at this stage. Investing in a large LP collection is not something I would ever consider undertaking either, for reason of time, money, and space.

There's nothing "synthetic" in the sound of the instruments. I believe I have gone beyond "crappy" digital, and I can enjoy listening to my system for hours without fatigue or frustration, but I am also convinced that there is more potential to unleash!

I also see no compelling evidence that investing large sums of money on digital is really going to make a significant difference at this stage. So I am just "sitting tight" and waiting to see how things play out

There are so many different competing approaches to digital today. The dust needs to settle.

 

[hopkins]

Moved on to another Ellington album - "Midnight in Paris" (appropriately). This is a very nicely recorded album and the HDTT digital files sound great!

Duke Ellington And His Orchestra - Midnight In Paris

Consultez des crédits, des avis, des pistes et achetez Filela référence de "Midnight In Paris" sur Discogs.

www.discogs.com

Midnight in Paris (album) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org