Can digital get to vinyl sound and at what price?

[Rexp]

Ok, your opinion. I think that ranking them is a matter of listener preference, not absolute stereo sound quality.



Now you enter other people systems with plenty of absurd elitism that does not prove anything.



The improvements on playback were not massive - they are evolutionary. The same way that vinyl playback has evolved in the last 10 years. Some people say that the evolution of audio during the last 20 years was lead by digital sound.

You have a point that streaming is still at his start.



You will always hear a difference between them. The working digital community is not interested in emulating the old analog sound - read what digital designers and recording engineers say about this subject.



It has catch up, but surely will not be able to recreate the analog recordings of the past or record the great artists of the past.



The only thing we know is that the future of audio holds in digital. Vinyl is making a comeback based in LPs using digital processing somewhere in the chain. We can have temporary limited resurgence of some old media, but not because of sound quality. Just MO, YMMV.

You keep repeating that SQ is about user preference. High Fidelity Audio is about fidelity, duh. Does your system make an acoustic guitar sound like an acoustic guitar.

 

[microstrip]

What you call “vinyl distortions“ are in fact part and parcel of much of the genuine music that many of us actually remember and adore. You wrongly look at your so-called “distortions“ as a defect, as many listen to it as what we so fondly remember as “the sound” … They aren’t distortions, but truth! The artists knew what the recording capabilities of their day were and produced their albums accordingly! That’s the sound many of us desire! I’m sorry you didn’t appreciate this reality!

Well, I did not invent the term - "vinyl distortions" has been used since long. I have said it several times - great recording engineers knew them in great detail, as well as other limitations of vinyl and managed to overcome them to make great recordings using great tricks - they are described in textbooks on recording. The vinyl master was different from the master tape - if you are one those people who prefer the sound of vinyl to the master tape you should be happy!

MS though you think you do, you don’t speak for all listeners (and neither do I). You are merely one small voice, one opinion, one mini cog, among many others!

Surely. But the objective points are universal. If I am mistaken please correct me.

Those of us who are accustomed to older music understand that artists recorded to the extremes that were present in their day. But they didn’t go beyond that! How could they, as they didn’t know then of today’s technology! So, different recordings - esp older ones — will have different strengths.

Surely again.

See you in 10 years when your points are disproven. Until then enjoy your delusions!

Well, why would 10 years be needed to prove I am wrong?

 

[Rexp]

Sorry, but distortions are just that, distortions. Not the truth but distortions of the truth. You may like them, which is fine. I grew up with vinyl. I do not look upon it fondly. I have been in some recording studios, hear the live mic feed, digital playback, the resulting digital files and vinyl made from the masters. The vinyl does not sound the same as the digital master. Give me the digital every time. But hey, that is just me. I am sure my hearing is shit and my system not good enough. I do wear my chaff badge proudly though.

Did mean Chav badge?

 

[Audire]

Well, why would 10 years be needed to prove I am wrong?

It will take you being incorrect on many things before you begin to understand the reality that you are once again entirely incorrect! As your grow in the truth you will begin to understand. Perhaps I’ve under estimated, it perhaps may take you 20 years or so….

 

[Joe Whip]

I guess.Rexp. You got my point though.

 

[Joe Whip]

It will take you being incorrect on many things before you begin to understand the reality that you are once again entirely incorrect! As your grow in the truth you will begin to understand. Perhaps I’ve under estimated, it perhaps may take you 20 years or so….

Wow, great to see another bloke here who knows everything about everything and isn’t shy to tell us.

 

[Joe Whip]

Time to go listen to some very cool Atmos Blue Note recordings from RVG.

 

[Rexp]

Time to go listen to some very cool Atmos Blue Note recordings from RVG.

Chavtastic!

 

[Audire]

Wow, great to see another bloke here who knows everything about everything and isn’t shy to tell us.

To make such a statement as you just made is a claim that you already know it all. Do you? Tell us oh wondrous one what the future of digital is?

Of course you don‘t know the future and neither do I (i.e. as I previously stated). And against your untruthful statement, I never claimed to! I merely said that digital is making some huge steps at present and I believe they will continue and may overcome Vinyl in SQ and even possibly tape.

Go back a re-read MS’s posts. He makes “absolute” statements without any evidence at all …. All he has is his suppositions w/o any knowledge of the immediate future, much less the distant future …

Digital is in its infancy. I, as many others, are expecting some transformational changes. Perhaps we’re all wrong, but I don’t think so. Emile has many innovations yet to be demoed - go back and read Steve’s informative post (post #71). Other engineers are working from other angles to improve the sound of digital - from DACs to Streamers, etc. With so many diligently working on solutions it’s extremely difficult to believe something new and exciting won’t take place! Something even transformational!

As I stated earlier, only time will tell!

Enjoy your Atmos Blue Note recordings …

 

[Ron Resnick]

I'm thinking that it would be possible to emulate some of the vinyl sound in a digital filter. The distortion from cartridge, phono can be emulated just like guitar amplifiers are being emulated now.

What would be the point of grafting analog distortions onto digital distortions?

 

[Joe Whip]

To make such a statement as you just made is a claim that you already know it all. Do you? Tell us oh wondrous one what the future of digital is?

Of course you don‘t know the future and neither do I (i.e. as I previously stated). And against your untruthful statement, I never claimed to! I merely said that digital is making some huge steps at present and I believe they will continue and may overcome Vinyl in SQ and even possibly tape.

Go back a re-read MS’s posts. He makes “absolute” statements without any evidence at all …. All he has is his suppositions w/o any knowledge of the immediate future, much less the distant future …

Digital is in its infancy. I, as many others, are expecting some transformational changes. Perhaps we’re all wrong, but I don’t think so. Emile has many innovations yet to be demoed - go back and read Steve’s informative post (post #71). Other engineers are working from other angles to improve the sound of digital - from DACs to Streamers, etc. With so many diligently working on solutions it’s extremely difficult to believe something new and exciting won’t take place! Something even transformational!

As I stated earlier, only time will tell!

Enjoy your Atmos Blue Note recordings …

Soray but you come off as smug on your high horse. That was the point of my comment, not that I know everything. Yes and Atmos is utterly fantastic.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

Does your system make an acoustic guitar sound like an acoustic guitar.

...whoah, but many different acoustic guitars, and guitar sounds. We should ask the luthiers what they think a digitally recorded guitar sounds like!

I asked a friend who plays a Damler guitar how his recordings sounded on my system. He said he didn't know home hifi could sound like that. He loved the sound. I expect many/most of you have more resolving systems that would up the game even further. How things sound is so subjective...

 

[Audire]

Soray but you come off as smug on your high horse. That was the point of my comment, not that I know everything. Yes and Atmos is utterly fantastic.

Stating the truth is often understood by some as being smug.

PS: “Soray“ is spelled “Sorry.” So many atmos speakers no wonder you can’t keep things straight. Enjoy.

 

[Rexp]

...whoah, but many different acoustic guitars, and guitar sounds. We should ask the luthiers what they think a digitally recorded guitar sounds like!

I asked a friend who plays a Damler guitar how his recordings sounded on my system. He said he didn't know home hifi could sound like that. He loved the sound. I expect many/most of you have more resolving systems that would up the game even further. How things sound is so subjective...

Imagine this:
There are 3 identical rooms, in room A a guitar is being played. In room B a recording is being played of the same guitarist/song on a cheap hifi. In room C the same recording is being played on a good system. 100 people visit all 3 rooms, 100 people think room C is more like the live guitarist. Are the 100 people correct that room C has
greater fidelity or are they expressing a subjective view?

 

[tima]

Imagine this:
There are 3 identical rooms, in room A a guitar is being played. In room B a recording is being played of the same guitarist/song on a cheap hifi. In room C the same recording is being played on a good system. 100 people visit all 3 rooms, 100 people think room C is more like the live guitarist. Are the 100 people correct that room C has more greater fidelity or are they expressing a subjective view?

Interesting. They each have their opinion. Objectivity is not the result of a vote. The closest you get is some notion of consensus, but what counts as that is likewise not objective.

 

[Al M.]

Go back a re-read MS’s posts. He makes “absolute” statements without any evidence at all …

Projection. Look at yourself and your own statements. You sell them as facts, but they're just opinions.

Microstrip on the other hand has a good point, in that a number of recording engineers have expressed a clear sound preference for digital and find analog limiting in quality. You can of course call them wrong, but that is yet just another opinion.

Some recording engineers do prefer recording to analog tape, these days even 2-inch tape, but those engineers mostly work in the rock space. In classical it's practically all digital.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Microstrip on the other hand has a good point, in that a number of recording engineers have expressed a clear sound preference for digital and find analog limiting in quality. You can of course call them wrong, but that is yet just another opinion.

who cares about preferences of the typical recording engineer? recording engineers are generally ignorant of true analog performance. when i've had them in my room they mostly are blown away by what great vinyl pressings can do on high quality turntables. the digital tools they have to mimic analog sound are not in the realm of the real thing.

there are exceptions of course.

where would these guys get exposed to top level vinyl? or what would cause them to pursue it?

and many of these guys might have top flight adc's, but maybe not the best dac's. they might not even really know how good their digital is either. i suppose we can't expect them to view sonics like audiophiles. which, of course, is my point.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...I wrote my friend loved the sound of his recorded guitar on my system, not that he thought it was real (or that I could trick him). He once told me the only time he and the engineers couldn't tell the difference between live and recorded, was in a Manhattan studio with a Studer flatbed they were using.

My point, perhaps not artfully articulated, was that there are many different guitars, and they can sound different both live and recorded.

Further, that luthiers and musicians who build and play guitars have different ideas about what they hear and what they listen for, and what constitutes real to them. I imagine "audiophiles" do as well.

To me, his guitar sounds excellent. It sounds real to me. Tone is so nice. The decay is fab. But this is a guy who has been doing it for a long time, solo, with orchestras. I very much doubt he listens for the same things I do. Maybe I can't even hear the things he does. And he literally *feels* the music though his body as he is playing. I'll never know all that for sure...but I can enjoy his music all the same.

Sorry if my point was diffuse above: I think it is elusive to define exactly what a guitar sounds like, given all the variables of the guitar, hearing/brain, and if recorded, the decisions in the recording chain, and lastly in our systems.

 

[Audire]

Projection. Look at yourself and your own statements. You sell them as facts, but they're just opinions.

Microstrip on the other hand has a good point, in that a number of recording engineers have expressed a clear sound preference for digital and find analog limiting in quality. You can of course call them wrong, but that is yet just another opinion.

Some recording engineers do prefer recording to analog tape, these days even 2-inch tape, but those engineers mostly work in the rock space. In classical it's practically all digital.

To the contrary, I have presented evidence - I cited WADAX, Horizon, and Taiko which I’ve clearly stated are improvements to digital. Of course there have been others in the last 10 years as well, Ideon, MSB DD, etc.

MS on the other hand has said that there is absolutely no way for Digital to ever match Vinyl? IMO he’s wrong! IMO, digital is improving and in the course of time will possibly surpass Vinyl and even Tape! As I previously stated only time will tell.

By your last statement above you seem to think I don’t think much of Digital while just the opposite is true. I've been defending the attributes of Digital believing one day it will surpass both Vinyl and possibly even Tape.

 

[Ron Resnick]

believing one day it will surpass . . possibly even Tape.

Surpass on what parameter or benchmark?