Can digital get to vinyl sound and at what price?

[PeterA]

I suggested that you and Peter find a system you're familiar with which affords the opportunity to compare high-level vinyl playback to a current generation Lampizator playing high resolution computer files to better understand one version of state-of-the-art digital playback.

Al M.‘s report of his visit to your place already confirms for me that your digital and vinyl sound different. I always suspected that the formats sound different based on m own listening, and Al’s comments confirm that they do. Why are you trying so hard to convince me otherwise?

We are not talking about preference here. I’m not in the market to add digital to my system so why do you seem so insistent? You should be having this conversation with Scott.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Al M.‘s report of his visit to your place already confirms for me that your digital and vinyl sound different. I always suspected that the formats sound different based on m own listening, and Al’s comments confirm that they do. Why are you trying so hard to convince me otherwise?

We are not talking about preference here. I’m not in the market to add digital to my system so why do you seem so insistent? You should be having this conversation with Scott.

You seem invested in the view that analog and digital sound different. I have never said that they sound the same, although you repeatedly attribute this to me. I have said that to my ears using playback of high resolution digital files via Lampizator analog and digital are increasingly difficult to tell apart. Please don't use this to suggest broader pronouncements of general applicability which I have not made.

I think you have experienced a limited number of comparisons on the basis of which you succeeded in confirming your opinion. I am suggesting that playback of high resolution digital files via Lampizator has improved more than you think it has.

I think it's good when someone in this hobby with strong opinions has up-to-date personal, experience-based, evidence for holding them.

PS: You keep citing Al's report on his visit to my system as evidence of your view, but we did not listen to digital files of any kind, let alone high resolution digital files. So Al's report does not support your view as a rebuttal to my posting which explicitly applies only to high resolution digital files.

 

[Lee]

In my limited experience, it has been very difficult to get streaming to sound as good as vinyl, and I would not go so far as to declare success.
I’ve found some of the most significant advances here (dCS Rossini is my streamer/DAC) were very low cost, or free

- hard wire Ethernet from router rather than use a WiFi bridge

- control with Mosaic rather than Roon

People tell me the Apex upgrade and clock, about $10k each, will get me closer.

I am pretty happy where things are though. Streaming from Qobuz is generally pretty enjoyable. I’m not actively trying to make it sound like vinyl anymore. It sounds very nice on its own.

Apex is next level. Whole different planet.

 

[SoundMann]

OK. Instead of try to insist that digital can sound like analog, maybe we should all except that it doesn't.

It's no secret by now that I don't get along with the sound of digital, as I am sensitive to what it does wrong.

However, I do hear promise in well made high order DSD recordings.

For now, I have completely divested myself from digital in my systems, and limit my exposure of digitalized music to vinyl sourced streams on my phone (thru headphones).

I do have just over a handful of digitally sourced records. I don't like the sound of them, so they spend all of their time gather dust.

For those that are happy using digital as a source, more power to you.

 

[Another Johnson]

Apex is next level. Whole different planet.

I keep listening to it in auditions at Paragon. And, of course Emron has advised me that it’s the better advance compared to the clock.

Yet when I return home to my pre-Apex, I am still really enjoying it. The plain ol’ Rossini is no slouch. Maybe if I did the Apex upgrade it would bring my digital closer to my analog.

 

[Lee]

I keep listening to it in auditions at Paragon. And, of course Emron has advised me that it’s the better advance compared to the clock.

Yet when I return home to my pre-Apex, I am still really enjoying it. The plain ol’ Rossini is no slouch. Maybe if I did the Apex upgrade it would bring my digital closer to my analog.

Mine is close to the Continuum Caliburn playback with a clock If that’s any indication.

 

[marty]

you can rank different fruit. Kiwi, for example, has much more fiber and potassium than a banana

Say what you wish about my gear and it doesn't bother me. But when you start trashing bananas, that's a challenge I could not resist. However, with much consternation, I'm afraid Ked is right on this one. The humble Kiwi wipes the floor of bananas from a nutrition perspective fairly easily.


But it's also obvious to me that video compares of DACs are about as useful as trying to discern the difference in the taste of these fruits by licking the screen that contains their pictures,

 

[PYP]

Easy answer No. I have been keenly following the Lampizator products especially the Horizon. I'd love to audition the DAC (hard to do) as I think it or the MSB Reference may be my best options IF I decide to take the plunge. It's the value thing that holds me back. Like many have said here I use my vinyl playback for dedicated listening and digital for more informal sessions. I'm also seeing a lot of folks who commented with very impressive digital frontends still preferring vinyl which was at the core of my question. Interestingly, a year ago I did consider abandoning my Vinyl but, with a rather large record collection, I instead upgraded my 20 year old equipment. I was rewarded with a huge improvement in SQ.

As to digital tweaks I have done many. Linear power supplied network switch, optical break in ethernet source, USB reclocker, etc. All have helped a bit. All and all its a very close run thing against my Vinyl.

Haven't read all of this very long thread, but just wanted to mention that a friend who has a Denafrips DAC found quite an improvement adding a Denafrips DDC. My own experience with a different manufacturer has confirmed (for me) that a DDC can increase the enjoyment of listening to music, no matter the resolution. If an in-home demo is possible, that may be one option to consider. Denfrips just updated the software of their DDCs, so you would the latest version of the software.

 

[tima]

I don’t recall Al M stating in his long report that Ron’s files sounded like his records. In fact, I just reread Al’s review of Ron’s system searching for any comments that the digital sounded like the vinyl. Ron specifically suggests a current generation DAC like his, but he has not shared with us how the technology has suddenly changed to sound more like vinyl, and specifically more like a 30 year old direct drive Japanese turntable.

Thinking there is some great gotcha because Al M did not listen to "high resolution computer files" yet acknowledged that digital did not sound like vinyl is irrelevant to the fundamental difference between an analog vinyl record and some (pick one, pick 'em all) digital format.

Your claim was that digital does not sound like vinyl because they are fundamentally different.

Thus far in this thread, from all the different viewpoints, I have not read people saying digital sounds like vinyl or that digital and vinyl are fundamentally the same. If someone trys to distract you by telling you to go listen to some particular file with some particular device that does not change what people here are saying or not saying. What's the point in telling you that? All the king's horses and all the king's men ...

Talk about playback devices is only part of the discussion. It is mildly amusing to find such a strict focus on a specific brand of playback device. This thread suggests people finding satisfaction or less than satisfaction with digital from a variety of devices.

An analog stream of information is fundamentally different from what results from dicing it into some number of pieces. Some believe the more pieces the more likely the stream resembles what it was before it was diced (sampling rate), asymptotically approaching analog -- so go the claims. How many different combinations of bits have come out of digital audio? So many 'formats'. Uncompressed, Lossy Compressed, Loseless compressed. MP3 WAV, FLAC, WMA, DSD (512, 256, 128, etc.) PCM and on goes the list. There is no high resolution standard. People have their preferences for how they 'do digital'. People make a variety of personal judgements about what sounds similar to what.

 

[Rexp]

Apex is next level. Whole different planet.

I've often thought DCS owners were aliens, which planet are you from?

 

[ScottK]

Haven't read all of this very long thread, but just wanted to mention that a friend who has a Denafrips DAC found quite an improvement adding a Denafrips DDC. My own experience with a different manufacturer has confirmed (for me) that a DDC can increase the enjoyment of listening to music, no matter the resolution. If an in-home demo is possible, that may be one option to consider. Denfrips just updated the software of their DDCs, so you would the latest version of the software.

Thanks for the suggestion. I actually own two Terminators in each of my systems (Magico A-5 vs Alexx V) I also own a Gaia DDC which is in my A-5 system. I found only marginal impact on SQ from Gaia. Yes there is a FPGA firmware upgrade available for the DAC's that many have said improves SQ. I plan on updating them soon once I acclimate to my new Alexx V's.

 

[Another Johnson]

Mine is close to the Continuum Caliburn playback with a clock If that’s any indication.

This simple observation struck a harmonious chord for me.

1. I love my high spec LP12. Up until my recent decision to not do the Radikal 2 upgrade, I’ve kept it up to date. Every shootout (or bake off in British English) I’ve heard, I’ve preferred it. I’ve been setting up TTs at a professional level for literally 38 years. I don’t have time to go listen to every TT out there. And I have little confidence in 90% of the set up gurus and even less with reviewer evaluations.

2. Several posts refer to the observation that vinyl and digital sound inherently different. Yet both are trying to sound like music. In my experience both can sound very much like music. I was at one time a member of The National Academy for the Recording Arts and Sciences. I know what music sounds like through five decades of adult life supporting it, playing it, listening to it, and most of all enjoying it.

The OP is a great forum question if the goal is to draw out all the digital vs vinyl arguments of the last 40+ years. I did not embrace digital seriously for its first two decades. When I did embrace it, the initial motivation was convenience, and the large collection of CDs I had accumulated for the CD players in my cars.

At this point I’ve made peace with both vinyl and digital. I am very happy with both. I have no interest in figuring out how to make my Rossini sound like an LP12. I have even less interest in how to make my Rossini sound like a different TT. And I have ZERO interest in replacing my LP12 or trying to make it sound like the ultimate DAC.

When I was a member of NARAS (since Lee worked with Chesky, he might be a member too), I could nominate and vote on Grammy Awards. I listened to a LOT of CDs and vinyl. Digital downloads and streamed files did not exist. I love the instant gratification of learning of a new musical performance and virtually immediately having it to play in my system.

The bottom line for me is that when both formats sound like good music, sit back and enjoy either one.

 

[PeterA]

Thinking there is some great gotcha because Al M did not listen to "high resolution computer files" yet acknowledged that digital did not sound like vinyl is irrelevant to the fundamental difference between an analog vinyl record and some (pick one, pick 'em all) digital format.

Your claim was that digital does not sound like vinyl because they are fundamentally different.

Thus far in this thread, from all the different viewpoints, I have not read people saying digital sounds like vinyl or that digital and vinyl are fundamentally the same. If someone trys to distract you by telling you to go listen to some particular file with some particular device that does not change what people here are saying or not saying. What's the point in telling you that? All the king's horses and all the king's men ...

Talk about playback devices is only part of the discussion. It is mildly amusing to find such a strict focus on a specific brand of playback device. This thread suggests people finding satisfaction or less than satisfaction with digital from a variety of devices.

I agree Tim.

I have never said that they sound the same, although you repeatedly attribute this to me. I have said that to my ears using playback of high resolution digital files via Lampizator analog and digital are increasingly difficult to tell apart. Please don't use this to suggest broader pronouncements of general applicability which I have not made.

Thank you Ron. I had not noticed that you qualified this comment to only mean that this is what you hear and only in your system. You are right. Under those conditions, I will refrain from suggesting any broader pronouncements of general applicability. Your ears, your system, and your opinion about only stored high resolution files on a Lampizator, not streaming or CDs, compared to your very specific Denon TT.

My opinion about vinyl, and digital more broadly, is different. And we can read that the opinions of others posting in this thread. I am not sure those other opinions are qualified to include only stored high rez files on a Lampi.

PS: You keep citing Al's report on his visit to my system as evidence of your view, but we did not listen to digital files of any kind, let alone high resolution digital files. So Al's report does not support your view as a rebuttal to my posting which explicitly applies only to high resolution digital files.

Al M wrote this in his report about Ron’s system: “To my ears, the vinyl was the most nervous and restless sounding of the sources.”

I understand that Al did not hear high resolution digital files stored and played back by your Lampizator. But from your very specific comment that those files sound like your vinyl, what do you make of Al's comment about the sound of your vinyl? Are your stored high rez digital files "increasingly difficult to tell apart" from what you hear from your vinyl? Do you agree with what Al wrote about the sound of your vinyl relative to your tape and streaming?

 

[Lee]

I have a few random thoughts on this subject.

1. It’s better to use digital to playback digital recordings. It’s better to use LP or tape to playback analog recordings.

2. Music gets robbed with an ADC and DAC conversion although it has become much better lately.

3. Analog tape holds the most musical information, followed by good LP. LP is really more around dvd-audio or SACD in sound quality. I learned this from Tim DeParavicini.

4. I prefer DSD to PCM, although PCM can sound very good.

5. Both digital and analog can sound amazing when the original recording is good and the mastering is good.

6. Some think of digital as being more clean sounding for some reason but like the wow and flutter of vinyl digital has it’s own issues. You have jitter, zero crossing distortion, ringing, etc.

7. I tend to prefer DACs with very good linearity. I think that’s why I gravitated to the dCS products. That is something they excel at.

8. The recent Continuum Caliburn experience has taught me that a lot of the quietness of digital can be replicated with very good analog playback.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I agree with much of this, Lee!

I agree with 1., but I consider it to be a rebuttable presumption, rather than a firm rule. In my statistically invalid experience I have found it to be generally correct, but not always correct. Bafflingly, sometimes the vinyl of a digital recording sounds better to me.

 

[microstrip]

I have a few random thoughts on this subject.

I will use your interesting comments to expose my ideas

1. It’s better to use digital to playback digital recordings. It’s better to use LP or tape to playback analog recordings.

If we are not addicted to vinyl or tape, or our system is tuned to some specific analog that misrepresents digital.

2. Music gets robbed with an ADC and DAC conversion although it has become much better lately.

Surely, in the high-end even a power cable can rob music. I would write "some music in some systemss" not music in general. We had reports in the 2000's by professionals who found ADC/DAC links to be completely transparent by the great majority of listeners.

3. Analog tape holds the most musical information, followed by good LP. LP is really more around dvd-audio or SACD in sound quality. I learned this from Tim DeParavicini.

Well, it depends on what you are considering musical information. IMO you can't separate this comment from the recording engineer intentions. I find that some digital played music has more information than the vinyl recordings and we know some top recordings carried in digital would not have been possible in analog.

4. I prefer DSD to PCM, although PCM can sound very good.

Can't have an opinion on that - the caracteristics of recording surpass this aspect and we do not have access to top recordings in full DSD or full PCM

5. Both digital and analog can sound amazing when the original recording is good and the mastering is good.

Full agreement.

6. Some think of digital as being more clean sounding for some reason but like the wow and flutter of vinyl digital has it’s own issues. You have jitter, zero crossing distortion, ringing, etc.

We train to ignore artifacts - even our listening room.

7. I tend to prefer DACs with very good linearity. I think that’s why I gravitated to the dCS products. That is something they excel at.

I also prefer them. But can't associate my preference to any technical characteristic, although I feel good knowing they are extremely linear and accurate.

8. The recent Continuum Caliburn experience has taught me that a lot of the quietness of digital can be replicated with very good analog playback.

I felt the same about the TechDas, but the anti "black background" brigade feels nervous with it ...

 

[Another Johnson]

I felt the same about the TechDas, but the anti "black background" brigade feels nervous with it ...

In my listening room in my listening seat ambient noise levels are about 29 dBA. This would be considered quite quiet by most.

If I measure the level at the same location between tracks of the best recordings, it’s indiscriminately different. Still about 29 dBA.

So … I love silent silences as much as the next guy. Many TTs don’t deliver the best silence because they’re incapable, usually because of design flaws. Others fail because of inept setup.

But in my room, simple dB math shows that my TT silence is close to 20dB, and that’s in the range of a decent anechoic chamber. If we listened in an anechoic chamber, my turntable would be audible. Yours might be too.

 

[Joe Whip]

Congrats that is quiet. With all my windows closed I only get the around 36,

 

[DasguteOhr]

With loudspeaker around 90dB/ 1watt is my thorens dead quiet too
it only becomes interesting from up 96-97 db/1 watt. then you hear if the developer screwed up.
Groove noise had to be 15–20 dB. Simply measure the idle groove with the cartridge and then raise the tonearm.

 

[Lee]

I will use your interesting comments to expose my ideas



If we are not addicted to vinyl or tape, or our system is tuned to some specific analog that misrepresents digital.



Surely, in the high-end even a power cable can rob music. I would write "some music in some systemss" not music in general. We had reports in the 2000's by professionals who found ADC/DAC links to be completely transparent by the great majority of listeners.



Well, it depends on what you are considering musical information. IMO you can't separate this comment from the recording engineer intentions. I find that some digital played music has more information than the vinyl recordings and we know some top recordings carried in digital would not have been possible in analog.


Can't have an opinion on that - the caracteristics of recording surpass this aspect and we do not have access to top recordings in full DSD or full PCM



Full agreement.


We train to ignore artifacts - even our listening room.



I also prefer them. But can't associate my preference to any technical characteristic, although I feel good knowing they are extremely linear and accurate.


I felt the same about the TechDas, but the anti "black background" brigade feels nervous with it ...

Good comments!