Can digital get to vinyl sound and at what price?

[KHORN1]

My reaction. Another D vs A thread with the same things being said that have been stated so many times before. And what is missing, again, is a discussion of why we listen to music in the first place regardless of format. There seems to be an obsession with the messenger vs the message. Oh well.

I agree with your reference of live unamplified instruments and voice.

My ears are the best reference i have.

 

[Al M.]

Live unamplified acoustical performances preferably.

Good.

I go to a number of live concerts of unamplified acoustical performances each year, in different venues and sitting in different seats, which each time gives a new sonic perspective. It establishes a range of sounds that can be heard live, and reproduction must fall within that window in order to be believable.

On that parameter, I do not hear a clear advantage in fidelity of vinyl over digital (I love both, each in their own way). And yes, I have heard great vinyl playback in other systems.

But perhaps my ears are not as exquisite and sophisticated as yours, and I am just a country bumpkin. Who knows.

 

[SoundMann]

Good.

I go to a number of live concerts of unamplified acoustical performances each year, in different venues and sitting in different seats, which each time gives a new sonic perspective. It establishes a range of sounds that can be heard live, and reproduction must fall within that window in order to be believable.

On that parameter, I do not hear a clear advantage in fidelity of vinyl over digital (I love both, each in their own way). And yes, I have heard great vinyl playback in other systems.

But perhaps my ears are not as exquisite and sophisticated as yours, and I am just a country bumpkin. Who knows.

Did you forget the part where I said that only direct to disc pressings were an accurate, reliable source for comparisons?

 

[tima]

Digital does not sound like vinyl at any price because they are fundamentally different.

Since you made that statement the thread has now gone on for at least 10 more pages. Peter, have you read anyone, regardless of personal preference, saying that digital sounds like vinyl, or saying digital sounds like vinyl because they are fundamentally the same?

 

[Ron Resnick]

The meme you both are fixated on will not offer a way forward. As vinyl aficionados and sufferers of digitalitis like me I suspect that only a current generation Lampizator playing high resolution computer files will help you understand what I have reported.

Please find a system you're familiar with which affords the opportunity to compare high-level vinyl playback to a current generation Lampizator playing high resolution computer files. I look forward to your reports.

 

[tima]

How will listening to files through a dac change what others are saying in this thread?

 

[PeterA]

Since you made that statement the thread has now gone on for at least 10 more pages. Peter, have you read anyone, regardless of personal preference, saying that digital sounds like vinyl, or saying digital sounds like vinyl because they are fundamentally the same?

No Tim, I have not. Just the opposite in fact. Quite a few people agreed with my post claiming the formats are fundamentally different. Ron’s claim seems unique. And it is a generalized claim based on listening to the limited sample of his own two sources. What is the OP ScottK to make of Ron’s claim?

I don’t recall Al M stating in his long report that Ron’s files sounded like his records. In fact, I just reread Al’s review of Ron’s system searching for any comments that the digital sounded like the vinyl. Ron specifically suggests a current generation DAC like his, but he has not shared with us how the technology has suddenly changed to sound more like vinyl, and specifically more like a 30 year old direct drive Japanese turntable.

It is interesting because Al described some issues with the vinyl which he attributed to possible constant searching and correction for speed on the Denon direct drive turntable. I own a similar Denon turntable and I never heard those issues. But the important observation is that the Lampizator DAC did not make the digital sound like the records in Ron system, at least as suggested in Al’s review. In contrast, he described the little digital he listened to as having the same airiness as the tapes he heard.

There was no hint from Al that the digital reminded him at all in any way of the sound of the vinyl in Ron‘s system.

Ron suggests that you and I seek out this actual comparison, but Al who is a keen listener already did it and his report does not support Ron’s claim. In fact it suggests the opposite.

 

[Al M.]

No Tim, I have not. Just the opposite in fact. Quite a few people agreed with my post claiming the formats are fundamentally different. Ron’s claim seems unique. And it is a generalized claim based on listening to the limited sample of his own two sources. What is the OP ScottK to make of Ron’s claim?

I don’t recall Al M stating in his long report that Ron’s files sounded like his records. In fact, I just reread Al’s review of Ron’s system searching for any comments that the digital sounded like the vinyl. Ron specifically suggests a current generation DAC like his, but he has not shared with us how the technology has suddenly changed to sound more like vinyl, and specifically more like a 30 year old direct drive Japanese turntable.

It is interesting because Al described some issues with the vinyl which he attributed to possible constant searching and correction for speed on the Denon direct drive turntable. I own a similar Denon turntable and I never heard those issues. But the important observation is that the Lampizator DAC did not make the digital sound like the records in Ron system, at least as suggested in Al’s review. In contrast, he described the little digital he listened to as having the same airiness as the tapes he heard.

There was no hint from Al that the digital reminded him at all in any way of the sound of the vinyl in Ron‘s system.

Ron suggests that you and I seek out this actual comparison, but Al who is a keen listener already did it and his report does not support Ron’s claim. In fact it suggests the opposite.

Thank you, Peter.

Slight correction: While I did indeed hear some remarkable airy quality on the digital, I did not suggest that the digital had the same airiness as the tape. In particular, on digital we did not play orchestral music, where I found the airiness of tape so striking.

Here is the exact quote from my review:

I wanted to listen to digital (CD playback) mostly just for diagnostic purposes, and we did not spend much time with it. Yet still, qualities of the system were evident there too. The dulcimer on Joni Mitchell's "Blue" album was the most transparent and believably airy that I have heard, and the drum brush work on Lee Morgan's "Lover Man" was exquisitely resolved. The digital sounded clean and relaxed as well.

Review is on this page (for some reason, WBF today did not allow me to embed the link above):

Ron’s New System

Yes; you have been asking me to explain my term, and I have been doing my best to do so. No; I don't believe I ever defined "sonic center of gravity" as "a frequency range between 100-1000Hz." I actually mean that this is the range where you want your system’s “Sonic center of gravity“.

www.whatsbestforum.com

 

[Audiohertz2]

'heard' and "really listened to intently for extended periods" are different things. in the same way blind testing or even communal listening to brief tracks are not the same as living with gear for weeks or months to get the measure of it. you have to get to the point where the recording method and source are not mindful. it's just the experience of the music.

i'm completely invested in analog, yet i can and have gone for weeks with digital only.

sad for you. lots of great music only on digital.

some days i like to just chill listening to hours of digital and it can be very satisfying. all those feelings of appreciation and hunger for more are part of it.

i respect that has not been your experience.

i do see analog as the highest form of music reproduction for sure, but it's not a binary question. either/or.

Agree completely , its never either or if you are serious about listening to “Music” , ultimately Vinyl wins , but why choose when you can enjoy both ..!

 

[PeterA]

Thank you, Peter.

Slight correction: While I did indeed hear some remarkable airy quality on the digital, I did not suggest that the digital had the same airiness as the tape. In particular, on digital we did not play orchestral music, where I found the airiness of tape so striking.

Here is the exact quote from my review:

I wanted to listen to digital (CD playback) mostly just for diagnostic purposes, and we did not spend much time with it. Yet still, qualities of the system were evident there too. The dulcimer on Joni Mitchell's "Blue" album was the most transparent and believably airy that I have heard, and the drum brush work on Lee Morgan's "Lover Man" was exquisitely resolved. The digital sounded clean and relaxed as well.

Thank you for re-posting your exact quote. “The digital sounded clean and relaxed as well“. This comment about the digital is in stark contrast to your comment about the turntable sound leading me to wonder why Ron thinks his digital sounds like his vinyl and then making a generalized claim about digital and vinyl.

Do you think digital through the Lampizator sounds like vinyl on the Denon in Ron’s system? I have the impression that you agree with others who think that digital and analog are fundamentally different and do not sound alike and that you like each for different reasons.

 

[Al M.]

Thank you for re-posting your exact quote. “The digital sounded clean and relaxed as well“. This comment about the digital is in stark contrast to your comment about the turntable sound leading me to wonder why Ron thinks his digital sounds like his vinyl and then making a generalized claim about digital and vinyl.

Do you think digital through the Lampizator sounds like vinyl on the Denon in Ron’s system? I have the impression that you agree with others who think that digital and analog are fundamentally different and do not sound alike and that you like each for different reasons.

Indeed, your last sentence captures quite accurately my impressions on the subject. While digital and vinyl can sound alike in some cases, often they do not. I certainly did not get the impression that the digital and vinyl sounded like each other in Ron's system.

 

[Audiohertz2]

The only times i have experienced digital and analog sounding alike , was due to the type of phono stage used . Any PP with IC’s did sound like digital ..!

 

[PeterA]

Indeed, your last sentence captures quite accurately my impressions on the subject. While digital and vinyl can sound alike in some cases, often they do not. I certainly did not get the impression that the digital and vinyl sounded like each other in Ron's system.

Thank you for confirming that. Even though I don’t have extensive experience with the latest digital technology, your observations of Ron’s formats confirm what I hear every time I compare the digital to vinyl in systems that have both. They sound fundamentally different.

 

[exupgh12]

This is at the heart of my question. If I go High-end extreme on my DAC will I get better than my vinyl or just different or "better" digital. As I have stated they are very close now. Ultimately what makes the most difference in both is the quality of the recording. That dominates any differences between formats.

The short answer is that (in my experience) if you go high-end extreme on your DAC, you will get a better digital listening experience. However, it is unlikely that you will get a better sound than you can get from vinyl.

 

[KHORN1]

Good.

I go to a number of live concerts of unamplified acoustical performances each year, in different venues and sitting in different seats, which each time gives a new sonic perspective. It establishes a range of sounds that can be heard live, and reproduction must fall within that window in order to be believable.

On that parameter, I do not hear a clear advantage in fidelity of vinyl over digital (I love both, each in their own way). And yes, I have heard great vinyl playback in other systems.

But perhaps my ears are not as exquisite and sophisticated as yours, and I am just a country bumpkin. Who knows.

I've talked to a number of people regarding vinyl vs digital. Some say vinyl is better, Some say digital. I usually listen to streamed music but I have over 400 recording that have been ripped from CDs I've previously owned. Some are good, some bad, and some fantastic. I also have some high resolution recordings that are DSD that were purchased on line. Most are fantastic however, some are indistinguishable from a well recorded CD.

My opinion is basically irrelevant since I gave away my vinyl years ago and I have no interest in going that route due to the expense of albums.

Some audio dealers really hype vinyl up, but I think that they maybe the ones that would be willing to sell you a $10,000 power cord for your amp.

 

[ScottK]

The short answer is that (in my experience) if you go high-end extreme on your DAC, you will get a better digital listening experience. However, it is unlikely that you will get a better sound than you can get from vinyl.

Perfect. Lots of good advice here. As with most things in life all component selection is about tradeoffs. This is especially true with digital sound reproduction. In Hi-Fi-Advice the reviewer said this about my current DAC;
"This DAC is simply without flaws. It sets the standard not only at its retail price but it’s one of the finest DACs that I have heard irrespective of the cost. Whether or not you will like its super-transparent and ultra-precise rendering of the music is a personal matter but I will say that it’s rare for an audio component with such extreme levels of precision to remain refined and nuanced while also being musically appealing and emotionally engaging. Direct competitors in order of ascending retail prices are the Mola Mola Tambaqui, the Aqua Formula xHD, and the CH Precision C1. All three offer different facilities and provide different tonal- and spatial presentations. But these differences are not nearly as large as one might suspect based on the cost. Most impressively, none of the other DACs manage greater levels of transparency, detail retrieval, or overall precision."
I believe this to be true thus the value aspect of my question. However, I do think we hear with our brain but at some point my 72 year old transducers will fail me thus jumping into the high-end extreme at this point makes sense to me. This thread has been extremely useful albeit some unnecessary bickering. Thanks everyone!

 

[hopkins]

The short answer is that (in my experience) if you go high-end extreme on your DAC, you will get a better digital listening experience. However, it is unlikely that you will get a better sound than you can get from vinyl.

My experience is that higher end DACs are not "transformative". You are still obviously listening to digital.

 

[Carlos269]

My experience is that higher end DACs are not "transformative". You are still obviously listening to digital.

How many true 1-bit high rate DSD dacs have you listened to? I think by higher end you mean more costly. Why don’t you instead listen to specialized DSD dacs that are not based on off the shelf IC’s and let us know if you think that they are “transformative”. I think that you will be surprised by what you hear.

 

[hopkins]

How many true 1-bit high rate DSD dacs have you listened to? I think by higher end you mean more costly. Why don’t you instead listen to specialized DSD dacs that are not based on off the shelf IC’s and let us know if you think that they are “transformative”. I think that you will be surprised by what you hear.

Yes, higher end here means more costly. I have never listened to a "true 1-bit high rate DSD DAC" - if those were truly different I think it would be well established by now, but perhaps I am wrong.

Having a workstation to convert files on the fly to DSD is not something I would want to do. There may be some benefits to DSD DACs, but there are also obvious limitations - using a signal that requires a very large bandwidth (several MHZ) to communicate with the DAC means you are open to a wide interference spectrum from the source. But that's just my opinion.

 

[Ron Resnick]

How will listening to files through a dac change what others are saying in this thread?

Where did I suggest that you listening to a current generation Lampizator playing high resolution computer files will change what others are saying in this thread? I never suggested that.

I suggested that you and Peter find a system you're familiar with which affords the opportunity to compare high-level vinyl playback to a current generation Lampizator playing high resolution computer files to better understand one version of state-of-the-art digital playback.