Can digital get to vinyl sound and at what price?

[the sound of Tao]

LOL.I've told you already it's not a perfect comparison, the key question I asked folks was how does their Qobuz/Tidal playback compare to the needledrop. A question you still haven't answered.

It’s not perfect… two different in room videos (EDIT: ie of two different rooms and systems) aren’ a perfect comparison… not even close… but a line recording versus an in room recording is a rubbish comparison and dodgy and meaningless… you never answer the question I asked what does the needledrop recording benchmark to… and how does the audio show in room recording be justified as a fair and alike comparison.

Once again can you point me to some of your system recordings and identify their analogue and digital provenance and if you think it’s a worthy exercise for keeping pushing others to invest their time in it can you at least do your best in room analogue and best digital videos at your place to offer a bit more of a meaningful comparison to better demonstrate your experience with this.

 

[Another Johnson]

There's smoke on the water it's been there since June
Tree trunks uprooted beneath the high crescent moon
Feel the pulse and vibration and the rumbling force
Somebody is out there beating on a dead horse

Bob Dylan

 

[Zeotrope]

Wow. So many of you have never heard a great tape or vinyl playback system, that is SAD.
There is NO hiss and NO background noise of any kind with a great turntable, and I imagine with a top tire R2R.
Go to a show - at least - and listen to an SAT/AF0/1/Nagra TT.

 

[Carlos269]

Wow. So many of you have never heard a great tape or vinyl playback system, that is SAD.
There is NO hiss and NO background noise of any kind with a great turntable, and I imagine with a top tire R2R.
Go to a show - at least - and listen to an SAT/AF0/1/Nagra TT.

There is inherent background noise in both tape and vinyl playback systems. If your system is not reproducing these signals during playback, which contain noise and distortions produced during both the recording and playback process, then you are not listening to a highly resolute system.

 

[Al M.]

Wow. So many of you have never heard a great tape or vinyl playback system, that is SAD.
There is NO hiss and NO background noise of any kind with a great turntable, and I imagine with a top tire R2R.
Go to a show - at least - and listen to an SAT/AF0/1/Nagra TT.

Nah. You don't need to oversell. There will always be clicks and pops, however faint.

Doesn't mean vinyl can't be great. It CAN be!

But overselling damages credibility of the pro-something crowd, doesn't matter which side, be it pro analog or pro digital.

 

[bonzo75]

Wow. So many of you have never heard a great tape or vinyl playback system, that is SAD.
There is NO hiss and NO background noise of any kind with a great turntable, and I imagine with a top tire R2R.
Go to a show - at least - and listen to an SAT/AF0/1/Nagra TT.

Hiss and background noise are not a problem at all. Those wanting no hiss or clicks should just get digital.

 

[Al M.]

Hiss and background noise are not a problem at all. Those wanting no hiss or clicks should just get digital.

You also get hiss on digital -- from digital recordings. It's a little tiny, pesky thing called microphone hiss. Also, there is sometimes (not often) faint background hum from the recording chain.

(If you don't hear any of this ever, your system isn't resolving enough and/or you listen at low volume levels.)

 

[Zeotrope]

There is inherent background noise in both tape and vinyl playback systems. If your system is not reproducing these signals during playback, which contain noise and distortions produced during both the recording and playback process, then you are not listening to a highly resolute system.

Not correct. Not on a well mastered album.
no clicks and pops either, which are more from the phono stage than anything else
Again, go listen to one of the systems above. Not a “pretty good” system- one of those specifically

 

[andromedaaudio]

People who wanna reduce pops / clicks should have a look at FM acoustics .
He gave demos with and without , his stuff really works

 

[Al M.]

Not correct. Not on a well mastered album.
no clicks and pops either, which are more from the phono stage than anything else
Again, go listen to one of the systems above. Not a “pretty good” system- one of those specifically

Again you're overselling. Just let it go. Analog is great without overselling.

 

[andromedaaudio]

There is inherent background noise in both tape and vinyl playback systems. If your system is not reproducing these signals during playback, which contain noise and distortions produced during both the recording and playback process, then you are not listening to a highly resolute system.

Agree
As usuall its all about the recording technique , i have very noisy tapes and dead quit tapes

 

[Mike Lavigne]

noise is musically a non issue for 98% of analog (it exists but is not relevant). nothing to even think about. on the other hand the right media is much more important with analog. the obstacle of analog is chasing quality media. both effort and cost. but when done it fully delivers. and you are enjoying at a higher level.

yet the digital experience is also very satisfying. and can be everything for sure. just then leave analog out of it. don't bother yourself with it.

until i had Wadax i had much more digital 'niggles' (audible non musical things) than any analog ones. one can move on from that part with digital, but it will cost you.

 

[andromedaaudio]

I like digital electronic music , its digitally made , i like it reproduced via a DAC
They played some on the WADAX last weekend which was nice, not the usual safe show stuff

 

[Zeotrope]

Again you're overselling. Just let it go. Analog is great without overselling.

Do not tell me what I’m doing or not doing. Believe the Earth is flat if that’s what makes you happy. You have obviously never heard a world class analog system. No overselling.

 

[PeterA]

Do not tell me what I’m doing or not doing. Believe the Earth is flat if that’s what makes you happy. You have obviously never heard a world class analog system. No overselling.

I do not know if @Al M. has heard the turntables on your list, but he heard my American Sound AS2000 the other night. I am not claiming it is world class, nor do I have any idea what you may think of it, but Al did comment on what he thought was a pretty good presentation, particularly on a Stravinsky recording. I think he is convinced that vinyl records can sound very good. If you want to keep advocating for the quality of vinyl, I am all for it. I happen to agree with you.

I have heard the TechDAS AF1 (P?) and the AS2000 in the same high quality system. The AF1 that you suggest listening too had a very distinct sound in that comparison and the contrast was quite interesting. The AF1 did an extremely good job of suppressing surface noise. It is highly damped and produced a kind of silence, rare from most playback. Backgrounds were very black. I heard a similar characteristic to the sound of my former SME Model 30/12. The AS2000 also has a very low noise level, but the sound is completely different as was the amount of information retrieval. I have not heard the other turntables on your list. They are indeed highly regarded.

What qualities do the turntables on your list have that enable you to describe them as "world class analog system"?

 

[Zeotrope]

I do not know if @Al M. has heard the turntables on your list, but he heard my American Sound AS2000 the other night. I am not claiming it is world class, nor do I have any idea what you may think of it, but Al did comment on what he thought was a pretty good presentation, particularly on a Stravinsky recording. I think he is convinced that vinyl records can sound very good. If you want to keep advocating for the quality of vinyl, I am all for it. I happen to agree with you.

I have heard the TechDAS AF1 (P?) and the AS2000 in the same high quality system. The AF1 that you suggest listening too had a very distinct sound in that comparison and the contrast was quite interesting. The AF1 did an extremely good job of suppressing surface noise. It is highly damped and produced a kind of silence, rare from most playback. Backgrounds were very black. I heard a similar characteristic to the sound of my former SME Model 30/12. The AS2000 also has a very low noise level, but the sound is completely different as was the amount of information retrieval. I have not heard the other turntables on your list. They are indeed highly regarded.

What qualities do the turntables on your list have that enable you to describe them as "world class analog system"?

Hi Peter,

My list of world-class TTs is certainly not exhaustive. I should have noted that above. It’s just a short list of tables that I have personally heard or heard feedback from people I trust.
I’m sure your AS is an incredible table. I read parts of your journey with turntables and you made a very knowledgeable decision.

I just wanted to point out the belief that surface noise wi vinyl is a misnomer. I have over 100dB efficient horns in a small room - I hear Everything! I can honestly say that vinyl has no more background hiss or noise than my digital system.
Yes, some albums are noisy, but ~90% of my 195+ albums are dead quiet. So I wouldn’t say it’s a rarity to find a quiet album.

It hasn’t been “mastered out”, it’s not there but not audible. It’s just not there. Same applies to clicks and pops.

 

[andromedaaudio]

I can honestly say that vinyl has no more background hiss or noise than my digital system.

Impossible on a revealing system.
with some good selected records ok , but im sure it doesnt count for the vast majority of records

 

[PYP]

You guys do realize that world peace is going to be accomplished before the question in this thread is answered

or world peace depends upon answering this question! Maybe another 70 pages or so...

Joking aside, the points made about mastering have been interesting. While I stream about 99% of the time and think it is a great way to find and enjoy music, there is no doubt that the listener has no idea about the standard of the mastering. Sometimes the highest resolution options sound worse than a lower resolution version. With proper engineering and mastering, 44.1/16 resolution can be very, very enjoyable.

Even when engineering is good, there is the perspective of the engineer. For example, the engineer's preference of recording a piano may not align with our own preference. On some recordings, you can doubt that your setup can provide a decent simulation of a piano and then a better (to one's ears and preferences) recording wipes away that doubt and you marvel at the majesty of the instrument.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Even when engineering is good, there is the perspective of the engineer. For example, the engineer's preference of recording a piano may not align with our own preference. On some recordings, you can doubt that your setup can provide a decent simulation of a piano and then a better (to one's ears and preferences) recording wipes away that doubt and you marvel at the majesty of the instrument.

Everything about a recording is important… not as much as the quality of the original performance and the music itself perhaps (if you are a music lover) but this is an audiophile forum, all the contributing elements of sound quality will always be a primary/significant issue here.

Optimal recording and mastering is super important when you’ve got a well setup system. A fabulously recorded concert grand is a great test of a system and a complete joy if your system is up to replaying a concert grand piano truly well… but more than a few systems will struggle to be very good at replaying a concert grand properly let alone be exemplary at it.

The system and its setup need to be sufficiently resolving to make the more wonderful implications of the quality of the recording and mastering more essential. If you are hamstrung with a dodgy setup with a tipped up or bleached or lean tonal balance, or an etched top end or thudding dull one note bass I’m not sure that a better master is going to really save your experience. This is an amazingly challenging hobby to tackle and do well… but genuinely for this to happen everything throughout the chain from performance and recording throughout to replay and right through to the listening matters.

 

[AudioGod]

Digital is indistinguishable from the original master .
The vinyl is the exact opposite
It has it's own sound
You can ask any sound/mastering engineer that were in the studio , and then heard the recorded album on a digital file.
Vinyl has it's own sound , it's added distortion and other artifacts cause it to be more "pleasant " and organic and Musical
But it's far less accurate than digital .
And since most masters are digital there's no way an vinyl from the digital master could somehow sound better than the digital master itself .
Bottom line vinyl is sort of an EQ