Can digital get to vinyl sound and at what price?

[PeterA]

One mans challenging is another mans simple !

My take is different. It is hard to actually know what Bjork is supposed to sound like, so I can imagine all sorts of different presentations from different systems impressing the listener. But if you’ve been to a good concert hall and heard Mahler‘s eighth symphony or Beethoven’s ninth Symphony, and you know what it can sound like, then it’s very difficult to try to reproduce that experience from an audio system in a listening room.

 

[AudioGod]

BTW Mark Levinson claims his chip makes digital sound better than any analog source :https://danielhertz.com/pages/exclusive-technology

 

[hopkins]

BTW Mark Levinson claims his chip makes digital sound better than any analog source :https://danielhertz.com/pages/exclusive-technology

View attachment 120784View attachment 120785

I have no idea what this is, but why would it be needed if, as you claim, digital is "technically" already so superior to analog? Clearly Daniel Hertz does not agree with you
.

 

[AudioGod]

I have no idea what this is, but why would it be needed if, as you claim, digital is "technically" already so superior to analog? Clearly Daniel Hertz does not agree with you
.

He clearly thinks analog is better than digital but that his tech makes digital better than analog .
So yeah , a bit complicated

 

[Amir]

Do you know when Audio Industry destroyed this hobby?
When audio designers ignored listening tests and just trusted simple measurements like THD , ....

the first awful story started with replacing low feedback low stage tubes by high feedback high stage transistors , next awful story started with introducing digital CD as perfect format , in both stories the industry claim (perfect sound) was about highest SNR and lowest distortion.

The funny thing is non of those industry claims were correct and now after many years many audiophiles pay for old LP and good tube amplifiers.

The problem is subjective listening judgment has no valid reference point so no body can prove his claims.
Clark Johnsen was one of the first Audiophiles who told CD format is not good when all audiophiles were selling their turntable and buying CD player.

Now the industry is trying to tell us Class D is best , if Devialet, Hypex and Daniel Hertz claim Class D is OK then the only right way to judge their claims is listening tests. If their sound is OK then we accept their claim but if not we will ignore them.

I am skeptic about all of audio industry claims so I prefer to listen before any judgment.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Do you know when Audio Industry destroyed this hobby?
When audio designers ignored listening tests and just trusted simple measurements like THD , ....

the first awful story started with replacing low feedback low stage tubes by high feedback high stage transistors , next awful story started with introducing digital CD as perfect format , in both stories the industry claim (perfect sound) was about highest SNR and lowest distortion.

The funny thing is non of those industry claims were correct and now after many years many audiophiles pay for old LP and good tube amplifiers.

The problem is subjective listening judgment has no valid reference point so no body can prove his claims.
Clark Johnsen was one of the first Audiophiles who told CD format is not good when all audiophiles were selling their turntable and buying CD player.

Now the industry is trying to tell us Class D is best , if Devialet, Hypex and Daniel Hertz claim Class D is OK then the only right way to judge their claims is listening tests.

You are mixing up here, and confusing, audio designers and audio industry and recording companies (labels) and giant consumer electronics companies and high-end audio values and mass market consumer-electronics values.

 

[Audiohertz2]

Do you know when Audio Industry destroyed this hobby?
When audio designers ignored listening tests and just trusted simple measurements like THD , ....

the first awful story started with replacing low feedback low stage tubes by high feedback high stage transistors , next awful story started with introducing digital CD as perfect format , in both stories the industry claim (perfect sound) was about highest SNR and lowest distortion.

The funny thing is non of those industry claims were correct and now after many years many audiophiles pay for old LP and good tube amplifiers.

The problem is subjective listening judgment has no valid reference point so no body can prove his claims.
Clark Johnsen was one of the first Audiophiles who told CD format is not good when all audiophiles were selling their turntable and buying CD player.

Now the industry is trying to tell us Class D is best , if Devialet, Hypex and Daniel Hertz claim Class D is OK then the only right way to judge their claims is listening tests. If their sound is OK then we accept their claim but if not we will ignore them.

I am skeptic about all of audio industry claims so I prefer to listen before any judgment.

Out of context and so easy to disagree with in so many ways ...!

I am skeptic about all of audio industry claims so I prefer to listen before any judgment.

academic ...!

 

[Amir]

You are mixing up here, and confusing, audio designers and audio industry and recording companies (labels) and giant consumer electronics companies and high-end audio values and mass market consumer-electronics values.

Nothing mixed up, the main problem is in all area if you stop listening and just look at measurements then you will not get good result.

 

[Ron Resnick]

the main problem is in all area if you stop listening and just look at measurements then you will not get good result.

With this I agree!

This would've been a far cleaner way to make your point.

 

[Audiohertz2]

Its academic , regardless of how you select you are gonna have to listen , nobody cooks from a recipe without tasting ..!

Measurments and the understanding of them is crucial in design work, from observation the problem is not only the methodology, its that everyone designing today actually feels their way actually sounds good , regardless of how you and others feel differently ..!

I stopped counting the amount of awful sounding systems i have heard over the years held in high regard ..!

Nothing mixed up, the main problem is in all area if you stop listening and just look at measurements then you will not get good result.

 

[PeterA]

Do you know when Audio Industry destroyed this hobby?
When audio designers ignored listening tests and just trusted simple measurements like THD , ....

the first awful story started with replacing low feedback low stage tubes by high feedback high stage transistors , next awful story started with introducing digital CD as perfect format , in both stories the industry claim (perfect sound) was about highest SNR and lowest distortion.

The funny thing is non of those industry claims were correct and now after many years many audiophiles pay for old LP and good tube amplifiers.

The problem is subjective listening judgments has no valid reference point so no body can prove his claims.
Clark Johnsen was one of first Audiophiles who told CD format is not good when all audiophiles were selling their turntable and buying CD player.

Now the industry is trying to tell us Class D is best , if Devialet, Hypex and Daniel Hertz claim Class D is OK then the only right way to judge their claims is listening tests. If their sound is OK then we accept their claim but if not we will ignore them.

And you wonder why everyone has a different system and they all sound different. It is the same reason Baskin and Robbins has 31 flavors of ice cream. Taste varies.

 

[Al M.]

Do you know when Audio Industry destroyed this hobby?
When audio designers ignored listening tests and just trusted simple measurements like THD , ....

the first awful story started with replacing low feedback low stage tubes by high feedback high stage transistors , next awful story started with introducing digital CD as perfect format , in both stories the industry claim (perfect sound) was about highest SNR and lowest distortion.

The funny thing is non of those industry claims were correct and now after many years many audiophiles pay for old LP and good tube amplifiers.

The problem is subjective listening judgment has no valid reference point so no body can prove his claims.
Clark Johnsen was one of the first Audiophiles who told CD format is not good when all audiophiles were selling their turntable and buying CD player.

Except that in the case of CD the engineers turned out to be right after all. No, it's not perfect, and the first practical implementations of the format were awful, and engineers initially didn't even know about the importance of jitter etc.

Yet the basic math was right, and now the format is really, really good, with natural timbre if implemented well, and lots of subtle detail information in the CD pits that for decades we never thought were actually there. It turned out to be truly a high resolution format.

 

[Amir]

Except that in the case of CD the engineers turned out to be right after all. No, it's not perfect, and the first practical implementations of the format were awful, and engineers initially didn't even know about the importance of jitter etc.

Yet the basic math was right, and now the format is really, really good, with natural timbre if implemented well, and lots of subtle detail information in the CD pits that for decades we never thought were actually there. It turned out to be truly a high resolution format.

Yes, CD in AAD format is ok but not perfect.
I did not go for all details and just share an overall overview about what happened to audio Industry.
Measurements and mathematic models are useful tools for every audio designer but the key is the conductor should be listening experience not our Oscyloskop.

 

[Al M.]

Measurements and mathematic models are useful tools for every audio designer but the key is the conductor should be listening experience not our Oscyloskop.

Sure.

 

[Kingrex]

I don't understand how you could come to that conclusion on a highly resolving system playing digital (or analog for that matter). There is lots of inner detail on most recordings.

Adrian is correct in that the majority of vinyl lacks the energy and detail in the recording.. But that energy and detail is also missing in the digital . Most recordings in general lack true inner dedetail.

Ok. I can change my view.
Sources are full of inner detail. Most systems are not able to reproduce it. Value of the system has no bearing on a systems ability to resolve the information in the source.

 

[Lagonda]

I have no idea what this is, but why would it be needed if, as you claim, digital is "technically" already so superior to analog? Clearly Daniel Hertz does not agree with you
.

With his track record, why would anyone believe it anyway !

 

[PeterA]

Ok. I can change my view.
Sources are full of inner detail. Most systems are not able to reproduce it. Value of the system has no bearing on a systems ability to resolve the information in the source.

Rex, do you mean cost of the system has no bearing…? A system that is able to resolve the information embedded in the media is of high value, regardless of cost. A system that is unable to resolve the information embedded in the media is of low value, regardless of cost. To me at least.

A system that is both able to resolve the information embedded in the media and then present it in a convincing way is of very high value to me. Sadly, that’s a pretty rare combination.

 

[Tuckers]

I have no idea what this is, but why would it be needed if, as you claim, digital is "technically" already so superior to analog? Clearly Daniel Hertz does not agree with you
.

I want to hear the Daniel Hertz gear. Some people like it. Mark Levinson has had some brilliant designs in his storied career. But do you know what he is even better at? MARKETING. Many grains of salt should be applied to his marketing materials.

 

[Rexp]

And you wonder why everyone has a different system and they all sound different. It is the same reason Baskin and Robbins has 31 flavors of ice cream. Taste varies.

I don't think it's taste, more likely some folks are more sensitive to digital distortion than others. Some folks have liked CD from day one.

 

[thedudeabides]

There is NO hiss and NO background noise of any kind with a great turntable, and I imagine with a top tire R2R.

Depends on the recording. You must not have any mono or late 50's / early 60's recordings that the transfer engineer did not screw up. Miles Davis and Mercury Living Presence are good examples. If you do and do not hear analogue tape hiss, nuff said.