Can digital get to vinyl sound and at what price?

[AudioGod]

No, Rp lyra kharma exquisite is a league above.
Price is irrelevant its about coherency / transparancy

But what if he doesn't like their sound ?
You can think speaker X is better but sill like the speaker Y sound more even though you don't think it's as good technically as speaker X

 

[Porsche]

No, Rp lyra kharma exquisite is a league above.
Price is irrelevant its about coherency / transparancy

agreed, never been a fan of Wilson

 

[Ron Resnick]

On Hopkins "voodoo" versus Tucker disagreement:

I agree with both of you.

But I took the "voodoo" comment to refer to digital people sometimes not knowing exactly the technical reasons why different cables or "switches" sound different or different streaming chains sound different -- voodoo in terms of the mysteries of digital noise sources and the like.

Whereas the tweakiness and fussiness and organic-ness of vinyl playback (I agree with Tucker) is well-known, and the underlying physical reasons of what is going on with vinyl playback is well-understood.

Compared to vinyl playback I think digital playback physically is "plug and play."

 

[Ron Resnick]

The main reason I haven't spun up my analog system and brought it up to current standards is because I would need to address 150 issues like those mentioned above to be satisfied that I am getting the best sound it is capable of, and it would ultimately take maybe 1000 hours of my time and an enourmous outlay to do it properly. And I could only do it this way if I was to approach it.

I totally understand this, because I feel it too. I truly believe this explains why some digital-only people made a policy decision not to get involved in vinyl. But I resist this feeling.

I think this is basic -- and paralyzing -- audiophile OCD. "If can't be sure it's technically and physically perfect, I don't want it at all."

I feel the same way, but I ignore it. Yes, vinyl playback can be tweaked to sound different for many different reasons. A vinyl playback system may achieve only 90% or 95% of perfect alignment and set-up.

For me personally, to my ears, I know that even only 90% sounds more emotionally engaging than anything else. (I am excluding great tape here.) So I steel myself from worrying that my vinyl playback system may not be at 100%.

 

[andromedaaudio]

But what if he doesn't like their sound ?
You can think speaker X is better but sill like the speaker Y sound more even though you don't think it's as good technically as speaker X

Im a technician by Trade not in audio.
So i can 't help it
He is not in it for ultimate SQ he has some bling bling business model going on .
Stacking up shiny boxes for his YT channel

 

[wil]

Yeah, you're wrong.

I am entirely happy with my digital sound, no ifs and buts, no reservations.

I listen mostly to classical and contemporary classical avant-garde, and the recordings/masterings there are usually very good to great. Also my jazz albums sound mostly very good to great. As for rock, I look for masterings that do not suffer from the loudness wars, and in many cases you can find them, if you are not dependent on streaming but buy your own CDs or file downloads.



No, I don't want an analog sound, I want a believable sound. That's what I usually get with digital.

An important factor is both your digital source and your system as a whole, as well as your room (a lot of distortions that I ascribed to digititis in the past were in fact room distortions, as I found out after I eliminated them). The better my system became over time, the better the recordings appear to be. A number of recordings that I had judged to be mediocre in the past turned out to be very good to excellent.



You are describing the typical streaming problems, and the often short-lived "solutions" for them. I don't have these problems, since I am spinning physical CDs. My problem solver is CD transport > reclocker > DAC.

Sure, great streaming exists, but a lot of it isn't that good. I'm personally not interested in the expense and/or effort it takes to arrive at great high end streaming. I don't want to go through all the frustrations that I have observed elsewhere. My streaming is YouTube, over laptop and headphones.

A lot of CDs don’t sound good. A lot of records don’t sound good. It all comes down to the recording/mastering.In an optimized streaming system, it is easy to find a humongous gold mine of great music that sounds great. But don’t expect much pop music to sound good, if that’s what you’re looking for. Most will sound like trash.

 

[Republicoftexas69]

I respect Jay for building a brand that builds nothing. He has his faithful followers just as Amir has at ASR (another brand that is much to do about nothing). I am not buying either brand and find Jay to be full o himself and only watch for a laugh.

 

[facten]

I have no skin in Jay's work, but is it necessary to start going down the path of taking shots at him once again? Guy isn't allowed to respond on this site

 

[AudioGod]

I like Jay
He's doing his own thing and has his own style
I don't have to agree wirh everything he says

 

[hopkins]

I have no skin in Jay's work, but is it necessary to start going down the path of taking shots at him once again? Guy isn't allowed to respond on this site

I included his video as an illustration of a point of view which I think is shared by a number of other audiophiles. There is nothing to criticize in what he says. It is just his feeling about digital versus analog. Maybe he has not heard this or that source - neither have many others.

 

[facten]

I like Jay
He's doing his own thing and has his own style
I don't have to agree wirh everything he says

@hopkins
I included his video as an illustration of a point of view which I think is shared by a number of other audiophiles. There is nothing to criticize in what he says. It is just his feeling about digital versus analog. Maybe he has not heard this or that source - neither have many others.





I'm not talking about comments which are agreeing or disagreeing , nor about referencing videos, I'm talking about this type "personal" cheapshot comment "I am not buying either brand and find Jay to be full o himself and only watch for a laugh".

 

[Lagonda]

Yes, it does. It appears to apply to a lot of those who are suffering from mediocre streaming (as I said, there is good streaming, but it seems more rare). I don't have those problems with my CD playback.

Also, I think it is likely that due to its linear frequency response to 20 kHz (or higher) digital is more revealing of room problems than vinyl, which usually shows some level of rolloff below 20 kHz, even though its final frequency extension goes beyond that of a CD. A non-optimized room may sound "nasty" with digital, but may be less of a problem with analog.

Many audiophiles insufficiently take care of their rooms. I haven't done so properly either for too long a time. I installed ceiling diffusers in my room only in late 2018, for example, and they have proven to be absolutely vital to adress HF distortions (I realize, however, that not each room has the same problems).

Al, when you talk about addressing HF distortion it sounds like you are bringing the rooms spectral balance down to a point where the treble is less prevalent. Is it HF distortion or the normal treble of the digital recording you are fixing ?

 

[Al M.]

Al, when you talk about addressing HF distortion it sounds like you are bringing the rooms spectral balance down to a point where the treble is less prevalent. Is it HF distortion or the normal treble of the digital recording you are fixing ?

It's room HF distortion that I was fixing. My ceiling gave a metallic 'zing' coloration upon the hand clapping test, which was a bad sign, and indeed, on music it translated into hardness and lack of treble resolution -- something that could have been falsely attributed to the digital. Obviously, the whole effect was obvious only after fixing the problem.

Yet the digital was not completely innocent either. Moving from the original Yggdrasil DAC to the Yggdrasil LIM DAC brought down treble distortion yet more.

However, the difference in HF distortion between naked ceiling and ceiling with treatment was much greater than the addition of HF distortion by the previous DAC.

 

[Bruce B]

Looks like a mastering room, most of the "damage" has already been done elsewhere !

I have polished many "turds" that have come to me.......

 

[Bruce B]

.....and you did a slam dunk job too, if I do say so myself.

Tom

Thank-you kind sir.....

 

[AudioGod]

Thank-you kind sir.....

I like your speakers
Solo6 and Revel Salon 2

 

[skinnyfla]

Hey @all - not getting too much response in my thread, so I thought I´d join in here.

So - has anyone here gotten anywhere near a point where you could say, that digital is as satisfying as analog (not necessarily equal - but just as enjoyable?). If so - at what cost and what steps were necessary, what brought the biggest improvement.

B nice to hear just a few thoughts, before I read through all 86 pages here... like "DAC biggest improvement, or galvaic isolation necessary, or dedicated server opposed to iMac, or CD opposed to streaming"... maybe you can give me some insight as to whether it`s possible and how to go about bringing digital to a higher level... thanks

 

[Al M.]

Hey @all - not getting too much response in my thread, so I thought I´d join in here.

So - has anyone here gotten anywhere near a point where you could say, that digital is as satisfying as analog (not necessarily equal - but just as enjoyable?). If so - at what cost and what steps were necessary, what brought the biggest improvement.

B nice to hear just a few thoughts, before I read through all 86 pages here... like "DAC biggest improvement, or galvaic isolation necessary, or dedicated server opposed to iMac, or CD opposed to streaming"... maybe you can give me some insight as to whether it`s possible and how to go about bringing digital to a higher level... thanks

Yes, I find digital as satisfying and enjoyable as great analog, which I am always happy to experience in friends' systems.

It cost me about 9 grand to get to that point (sum cost of the entire digital rig); my setup is described in #1682, previous thread page. The digital cables are as important as the electronic components.

Of course, some may ridicule me for my "unsophisticated ears", but whatever. They haven't heard my digital, and they don't know what I experience.

___________________

PS: The DAC, despite its price, has proven to be a tough competitor or even favorite in direct comparison with much more expensive DACs in others' systems where I have heard the comparison myself as well.

 

[Porsche]

I got out of vinyl years ago when streaming got good, I have lived with a Burmester 151mk2 streamer for around 2 years, great piece and enjoyed it a lot, than I got the vinyl itch again, got the Burmester 217 package an was hooked again, night an day, after having the 217 for 2-3 weeks and not using my 151 except 2-3 times to compare I got rid of it. I now have the Burmester 111 streamer, its very nice as it should be, after comparing it with the 217 I still prefer the 217, however, the 111 is very nice and has a beautiful sound

217 retail is about $30k, 111 retail is about $55k, 217 for me but I do enjoy streaming and the 111 is very close and sounds wonderful

 

[skinnyfla]

... did some reading of the first few pages and taking @Ron Resnick s advice... investing in a Baltic4 might do the trick just to take a leap forward in digital playback... I come from a similar background than @ScottK , as far as listening habits go, I play vinyl 90% of the time when seriously listening in the evening... still I have many many CDs (all ripped via dBpoweramp to lossless WAV and sitting on my IMac, which is my Roon Core) and some new music I like is only available as download from Qobuz and such... I want to be able to play these local files and the music at a level, that ist good but affordable, considering it only takes 10% of my listening time... any alternatives if I may ask? I threw in the Canor 2.10 in the other thread...?