Can one find realism in box speakers that cost less than $150K after experiencing dynamics of horns and horn-type speakers?

[morricab]

Sorry, really don't buy the 90-year old horn argument. We have much better technology and materials compared with slide rules back then.

You’ve heard them, yes or no? FWIW, paper is still SOTA for speaker cone material and aluminum diaphragm compression drivers are still current tech. Maybe new horn geometries give more even dispersion and less honk but otherwise nothing really obsolete with the 90 year old tech.

You had some of the top scientists and engineers in the world working on the problem back then and they used their brains to solve problems...much progress since? Not too much...only to make ok solutions smaller for domestic tranquillity.

 

[morricab]

If they are sufficiently coherent and can image outside of the speaker...yes. Many speakers image well.

You didn’t really address my challenge. You implied that virtually all box speakers are capable of disappearing. I don’t think this is true.

 

[morricab]

Yes. Nothing is static, especially this hobby.

The resurgence of “old tech “ basically invalidates your statement

 

[BlueFox]

The resurgence of “old tech “ basically invalidates your statement

LOL.

 

[RogerD]

You didn’t really address my challenge. You implied that virtually all box speakers are capable of disappearing. I don’t think this is true.

I said if they are capable of imaging outside of each speaker and very coherent.
If they can’t do at least that...they’re not worth a nickel.
I would expect the majority of high end speakers properly set up to be able to disappear on most good classical recordings.
If they can’t especially for 150k I don’t know what to say.
Now a multi dimensional holographic image is dependent on the total system and that’s where the work is. But box speakers are well capable of that level....not all....but if not why bother.

 

[Rhapsody]

I had a thread asking for: Best contemporary speaker under $100k for Lamm ML2.x type amplifiers?
My favorite music is full scale orchestral / symphonic. My room is 20'x16.5'x8'. Current listending triangle ~11'.

Will the Roma do it for me with the ML2.2.?

YES, also the Caput Mundi will do it as well. The issue being that all of this is totally subjective, but in general terms the answer is YES.

 

[morricab]

I said if they are capable of imaging outside of each speaker and very coherent.
If they can’t do at least that...they’re not worth a nickel.
I would expect the majority of high end speakers properly set up to be able to disappear on most good classical recordings.
If they can’t especially for 150k I don’t know what to say.
Now a multi dimensional holographic image is dependent on the total system and that’s where the work is. But box speakers are well capable of that level....not all....but if not why bother.

Actually you said:
"Dynamic speakers can become invisible and fill a room with energy. Probably more dependent on the amount of amplifier power and size though and how clean the audio signal is."

The first statement I have found to be actually more true with other speaker types than cone/dome box speakers. The second statement, IMO, is only partially true...the cleanliness of power is very important to getting a speaker to disappear...the power is completely irrelevant.

I took the overall statement to mean that as long as you have very clean power that a dynamic speaker will become invisible and fill the room with energy...while the clean power will help speakers that CAN do this there are many speakers, of all types, that steadfastly refuse to do this. Your statement seems to imply all box speakers...it was vague enough for multiple interpretations it seems. What you are saying now though is rather obvious and not worth pursuing further...of course IF a speaker is capable of imaging and coherent then it will act invisible and coherent...

 

[morricab]

LOL.

Time to move outside your box...Bluefox...

 

[morricab]

LOL.

even digital is back to the future...discrete DACs are in! The first discrete DAC I know of was from Accuphase in the late 1980s...probably sounds quite good!

 

[RogerD]

Actually you said:
"Dynamic speakers can become invisible and fill a room with energy. Probably more dependent on the amount of amplifier power and size though and how clean the audio signal is."

The first statement I have found to be actually more true with other speaker types than cone/dome box speakers. The second statement, IMO, is only partially true...the cleanliness of power is very important to getting a speaker to disappear...the power is completely irrelevant.

I took the overall statement to mean that as long as you have very clean power that a dynamic speaker will become invisible and fill the room with energy...while the clean power will help speakers that CAN do this there are many speakers, of all types, that steadfastly refuse to do this. Your statement seems to imply all box speakers...it was vague enough for multiple interpretations it seems. What you are saying now though is rather obvious and not worth pursuing further...of course IF a speaker is capable of imaging and coherent then it will act invisible and coherent...

I agree with Paul...

A speaker is just a pump,it moves air and if it is designed well can reproduce the audio signal faithfully.
Does live music have borders? No...Are microphones effected by the walls? No...So all well designed speakers are fully capable of reproducing what the microphone picks up. What effects the efficiency of a audio system...all kinds of distortion. Once you remove that distortion...guess what is effected the most? The speaker..why? Because that IS the motor that moves the air. What happens to the speaker? It becomes much more accurate and reproduces what the microphone picks up...no borders and much more dynamic.
The 150k figure is ludicrous. Box speakers are very cable of tremendous realism.

 

[EuroDriver]

Time spent with Diesis Ludos, Aura and Roma, so musical !

Emile, and Ted from Taiko Audio in Holland and myself from Monaco spent 4 days at Rhapsody Audio where we got the following done

- Set up Bob's Taiko Extreme Music server to really sing in his system

- Carry out a large number of A/B comparisons of the same music playing from Bob's Vyger TT and streaming hi res digital from Qobuz

What we were not planning for was the high respect the Pilium amplifier electronics would earn from us, and falling in love with the musicality of the Diesis Roma speaker we used over 3 days and the Aura and Ludos which we auditioned.

The little Ludos was the imaging champ, the big Roma with its scale and super tweeter - the can do it all King, but the one that won my heart was the Aura.

I visited Bob's showroom in March and was underwhelmed with the SQ he was able to deliver, after all it was a Manhattan Commercial building with clanking steam pipes and the noise and bustle of 24th street

Now Bob has 18 Daiza vibration control platforms from Taiko Audio and the Extreme Music Server which is feeding an Aqua Formula XHD DAC. Bob upgraded his LAN and now streams Redbook and Hi Res from Qobuz. The SQ in his Audiophile cave has been transformed which allows the Diesis speakers to sing with their Italian glory.

I heard the Diesis at HiFi Deluxe in Munich where they sounded nice and received an honorable mention from Show reviewers. Now in Bob's place the Diesis speaker are power by some very competent amps from Pilium in Bulgaria. At Taiko Audio we us the Audionet Stern and Heisenberg Uber pre and power amps, which have a lower noise floor and incredible specs. However despite being very spoiled by the Audionet combo, we found ourselves absolutely musically content with the Piliums.

The Pilum - Diesis combo deliverers transparency, resolution, jump factor, tonality and harmonic richness by the spade full.

Run, don't walk to Bob's place on 24th Street, and tell us what you hear, and how your heart feels after 60 minutes of listening to Diesis delivering your favorite tracks in Redbook and HiRes

 

[tima]

- Carry out a large number of A/B comparisons of the same music playing from Bob's Vyger TT and streaming hi res digital from Qobuz

How did the A/B comparisons turn out?

 

[Rhapsody]

I will throw my 2 cents in regarding A/B comparisons......they make me dizzy. Why? because-

-The TT that is being used in this case a VYGER Atlantis has several variables (cartridge, phono stage (power cord), cables, what it is sitting on, chemistry with what it is sitting on (stand, isolation etc).

The chemistry between all of these variables and changing just one of them can tilt results one way or the other.

-The digital, in this case the Extreme ( fiber or internet input from Modem), dac, interface between Extreme and dac, cables, power cords on each item all of the various Extreme adjustable set up options, what everything is sitting on (stand, platforms) all can skew the results one way or the other.

-Vinyl or file availability regarding when they were cut from the original analog recordings- In my world I just don't care about having the closest to the master tape original as the hundreds of customers that I deal with, not one of them cares.

The only people that I know that care are several people here on WBF. So for this exercise we are trying to get a few good samples that can be used that are good test cases to compare with BUT with the multitude of changeable variables mentioned above, I would not take the results to the bank. Too many combinations of variables for either the digital or analog that could skew the results one way or the other.

-When you do these analog/digital comparisons human preference is definitely involved.

-When the comparisons are done they only matter in that specific room, with that specific equipment, on that day with the power in the building or the humidity outside, with those specific people listening that you can make any type of conclusions. BUT those conclusions imho don't have much too do with what someone else might experience with their set- up.

In my world the vinyl, the R2R and the Extreme all sound different. One doesn't sound "better" to me, they just sound different. I can get goose-pumps from all three formats, depends on the music to me usually vs. what it sounds like.

Again, just m 2 cents, nothing to do what anyone else would think about it or am I saying this is "the way it is", it is just this way to me

 

[Bobvin]

"What is on the master tape" isn't really able to be determined anyway, as it always requires a playback "system" with its inherant limitations and variables, not the least of which is the interpretation of playback by the listener(s).

 

[microstrip]

(....) The only people that I know that care are several people here on WBF. (...)

And some of us care reading them ... Information and entertainment, why else do you think we come here?

 

[microstrip]

"What is on the master tape" isn't really able to be determined anyway, as it always requires a playback "system" with its inherant limitations and variables, not the least of which is the interpretation of playback by the listener(s).

For me "master tape" means closer to the source. But we can't forget that listening tests have shown that some listeners prefer the sound coming from a tape loop to the direct microphone feed. In some sense going through tape is a mastering act.

Some people claim that a direct cut LP is closer to the source than a master tape. Who knows?

 

[Rhapsody]

And some of us care reading them ... Information and entertainment, why else do you think we come here?

I agree it's a GREAT subject for those that want to discuss them, BUT why not have a thread for the vinyl/R2R/Digital comparisons?

Sorry, I just don't see the relevance about these comparisons when the thread is comparing box speakers to horn type speakers.

 

[microstrip]

I agree it's a GREAT subject for those that want to discuss them, BUT why not have a thread for the vinyl/R2R/Digital comparisons?

Sorry, I just don't see the relevance about these comparisons when the thread is comparing box speakers to horn type speakers.

You are right, the WBF evolution is sometimes chaotic - if we open a separate thread the subject dies quicly, in the non relevant original thread people start contributing and the argument lasts for long ...

 

[Rhapsody]

You are right, the WBF evolution is sometimes chaotic - if we open a separate thread the subject dies quicly, in the non relevant original thread people start contributing and the argument lasts for long ...

I agree and understand

 

[NorthStar]

We love to read and learn and listen the fascinating stuff ...