Can one find realism in box speakers that cost less than $150K after experiencing dynamics of horns and horn-type speakers?

[bonzo75]

My post wasn't specifically about horns, I responded to one that originally addressed planars.

Everybody has their own personal perceptions of sound, and their own priorities in sound reproduction. It is therefore excessively naive to assume that everyone would have the same opinions if they just were exposed to the same things and experiences.

In this context you conveniently ignored the second part of my post, my observation that different audiophiles sometimes hear the sound of the same live concert differently. This also holds if they are sitting next to one another, i.e. experience the sound from virtually the same vantage point.

I didn't ignore it. Different audiophiles have different observations about the same concert and they share the same experience so you can discuss the experiences. But you cannot discuss classical concert experience with someone who has watched a Bollywood movie. Different music. Therefore as a horn lover very tough to discuss with you Bollywood types, was my point

 

[Al M.]

I didn't ignore it. Different audiophiles have different observations about the same concert and they share the same experience so you can discuss the experiences. But you cannot discuss classical concert experience with someone who has watched a Bollywood movie. Different music. Therefore as a horn lover very tough to discuss with you Bollywood types, was my point

As I said I didn't talk about horns. But you will never concede a point. So be it.

 

[ddk]

Do we expect big box speakers to sound any good in such circumstances?
View attachment 53203

NOT easy for any type of speaker to sound their best under most show conditions but there are certain attributes one can pick up to know wether it's worth a 2nd look or not.

Edit- One caveat, I haven't been to Munich but have been to shows where electricity is bad across the board to the extent that everything sounds similar, congested and compressed.

david

 

[morricab]

Compression or congestion or stress, whatever you want to call it, is more a problem related to the electronics.
Horns do have a advantage because of compression drivers...less distortion. You can do the same with dynamic speakers just takes some work and knowledge. YMMV

For sure you are in part right. I even experienced it firsthand in Munich ...and with a horn speaker no less. It was Cessaro Alphas with KR Audio Kronzillas. When the show shut down at 18:00 the sound got much more open (we were still running a bit after).

However, that system did nothing to help the power and I saw many with poor sound in the manner described with plenty of power treatment. So, some electronic s for sure

It is all relative...heard in isolation and at lower volumes many of these systems would sound darn good but after you hear the old WE system, Living Voice or Aries Cerat the rest sounds flat and congested and strained...

One nice exception was Live Act Audio, which uses profi Radian coaxial drivers. Seems high sensitivity comes with horn tweeter only can capture a lot of the magic in a room acceptable sized box. Voxativ in a back horn sounded alive as well but much more limited... Supravox high sensitivity comes/domes on an open baffle also held real promise...

At least what I can tell so far is you either go with high sensitivity (but not really single driver...too limited) horns or otherwise or HUGE surface area..,or both.

 

[RogerD]

For sure you are in part right. I even experienced it firsthand in Munich ...and with a horn speaker no less. It was Cessaro Alphas with KR Audio Kronzillas. When the show shut down at 18:00 the sound got much more open (we were still running a bit after).

However, that system did nothing to help the power and I saw many with poor sound in the manner described with plenty of power treatment. So, some electronic s for sure

It is all relative...heard in isolation and at lower volumes many of these systems would sound darn good but after you hear the old WE system, Living Voice or Aries Cerat the rest sounds flat and congested and strained...

One nice exception was Live Act Audio, which uses profi Radian coaxial drivers. Seems high sensitivity comes with horn tweeter only can capture a lot of the magic in a room acceptable sized box. Voxativ in a back horn sounded alive as well but much more limited... Supravox high sensitivity comes/domes on an open baffle also held real promise...

At least what I can tell so far is you either go with high sensitivity (but not really single driver...too limited) horns or otherwise or HUGE surface area..,or both.

Some of the best sound I have ever heard was in old movie theaters with Altec or WE horns. That though was with 35mm film and probably the best soundmen that ever lived.
It will always be about moving enough air to energize a space sufficiently.
Almost all the famous auditoriums use a combination of dynamic drivers for the low end and horns for the mids and highs.
You can improve the dispersion pattern of dynamic speakers though...can they come close to horns? Dynamic speakers can become invisible and fill a room with energy. Probably more dependent on the amount of amplifier power and size though and how clean the audio signal is.

 

[kach22i]

It will always be about moving enough air to energize a space sufficiently.

That brings up a good question about trade show hotel rooms, is there anyway to energize them in an advantageous manner?

 

[RogerD]

That brings up a good question about trade show hotel rooms rooms, is there anyway to energize them in an advantageous manner?

Well my room is 14x20 and then empties into another 1100 sqft. My system can energize the room and can also be too much if the power level
Is too much.
I would hate to achieve any kind of high SQ in a one or two day setup. It’s been a long time since i took part in a show setup. I would certainly use a system that had been together for at least 3 or 4 months or longer. I think slapping pieces together will give problems.

 

[ddk]

Some of the best sound I have ever heard was in old movie theaters with Altec or WE horns. That though was with 35mm film and probably the best soundmen that ever lived.
It will always be about moving enough air to energize a space sufficiently.
Almost all the famous auditoriums use a combination of dynamic drivers for the low end and horns for the mids and highs.
You can improve the dispersion pattern of dynamic speakers though...can they come close to horns? Dynamic speakers can become invisible and fill a room with energy. Probably more dependent on the amount of amplifier power and size though and how clean the audio signal is.

Theaters with WE & Altec horns how ancient are you Roger ?

david

 

[RogerD]

Theaters with WE & Altec horns how ancient are you Roger ?

david

Lol! Old enough to go to the Fox in San Francisco and many others.

 

[RogerD]

I’ll just throw this out there...how many dynamic (box) systems at the Munich show did the room disappear? The illusion produced seemed to have no boundaries, but produced a feeling of power and dynamics?
Try this album CD and see what performance level the system is at. Might not be optimized.The whole premise of the OP’s question is just so dependent on so many variables IMHO.

 

[tima]

I had a thread asking for: Best contemporary speaker under $100k for Lamm ML2.x type amplifiers?
My favorite music is full scale orchestral / symphonic. My room is 20'x16.5'x8'. Current listending triangle ~11'.

Will the Roma do it for me with the ML2.2.?

 

[KeithR]

Sorry, really don't buy the 90-year old horn argument. We have much better technology and materials compared with slide rules back then.

 

[BlueFox]

Sorry, really don't buy the 90-year old horn argument. We have much better technology and materials compared with slide rules back then.

Yes. Nothing is static, especially this hobby.

 

[Bobvin]

IMHO, this hobby is as much art as it is science. Someone putting together a system 75 years ago could find the magic as well as someone today. Back to your goals/expectations. I’ve heard technically amazing systems that completely failed to move me.

 

[Folsom]

Sorry, really don't buy the 90-year old horn argument. We have much better technology and materials compared with slide rules back then.

I believe horns can sound good. I also believe they are the answer for a lot of people that are nearly deaf, as far as I can tell. Whenever I hear them they almost exclusively are very painful. I see no reason why, but so far... exceptions have been JBL/waveguide/volti/ and stuff I am not thinking about. (That doesn’t mean I like them per se)

Horns are legit in many technical ways, even more so than anything else in some technical ways. And some drivers I have heard sound fine in one setup, bad in another. So my basic conclusion is people like to match them with ear drill electronics. Not sure what else to think...

Their biggest downfall in technical terms is mostly size. But the subjective differences are, well, personal. I would say modern drivers for the horns are superior in technical ways but subjective mileage may vary.

 

[parkcaka]

We all ask different questions but we try to find the only answer. That’s impossible.

After 20 years of Focal, Magico, Wilson journey Diesis was a revelation for me. The case was not that Diesis was just a bit better. Diesis was something else entirely.

It was the answer for the question I asked. This is very personal. Different questions, different answers so we should’t waste time arguing who is right. We should share experiences instead.

By the way because my holy grail in this hobby was Diesis that doesn’t mean I am a ‘horn’ guy. I listened to some horns before Diesis and never liked them enough to sell my Magico or Wilson for them. Maybe open baffle woofers were what was missing, I don’t know. So I never look at the subject as horn vs box speakers. I don’t care if it is a box, planar or horn. I try to listen to everything without prejudice. This hobby can surprise you very easily.

I learn a lot from every one of you regardless of what you choose to be the best.

 

[ddk]

Sorry, really don't buy the 90-year old horn argument. We have much better technology and materials compared with slide rules back then.

You're talking tools and different materials while ignoring talent, engineering knowledge and experience which doesn't exist anymore! The slide rule that you readily dismiss were tools that took part in the inventions and creation of it all .

david

 

[morricab]

I’ll just throw this out there...how many dynamic (box) systems at the Munich show did the room disappear? The illusion produced seemed to have no boundaries, but produced a feeling of power and dynamics?
Try this album CD and see what performance level the system is at. Might not be optimized.The whole premise of the OP’s question is just so dependent on so many variables IMHO. View attachment 53207

Your assumption being they are all capable of disappearing and other speaker tech not??

 

[morricab]

I had a thread asking for: Best contemporary speaker under $100k for Lamm ML2.x type amplifiers?
My favorite music is full scale orchestral / symphonic. My room is 20'x16.5'x8'. Current listending triangle ~11'.

Will the Roma do it for me with the ML2.2.?

Aries Cerat Symphonia will do it... not sure about US pricing but Europe starts at 85k.

 

[RogerD]

Your assumption being they are all capable of disappearing and other speaker tech not??

If they are sufficiently coherent and can image outside of the speaker...yes. Many speakers image well.