Can someone recommend a DAC for my system?

[opus111]

I can't see any good technical reason for running multibit DACs at 768kHz sample rate. I can see one important reason not to - glitches always increase as DAC chips are run faster. The PCM1704 datasheet demonstrates with hard numbers that the chip's performance degrades at higher rates - its performance is poorer than the previous generation (PCM63) which ran at half the speed (384k). TI/BB has managed to disguise this fact rather nicely by swapping over from dB to % measurements in their tables but its only necessary to do a bit of math to reveal the truth

What's even more interesting is that the PCM63 was characterized at -60dBFS level, the PCM1704 datasheet omits this measurement entirely. The enquiring mind wishes to know what they're hiding.

 

[NorthStar]

Yes I speak french. You are a fellow Canadian too!

Jonathan

---- Oui, je suis Quebecois pure laine (pres de Montreal); mon nom c'est Robert (Bob here). :b
...Maintenant en Colombie Britannique pour plus de trente-sept annees.

 

[NorthStar]

---Ok guys, now you know the scoop regarding Jonathan's listening habits and music mediums used; so, give it your best shot. ...The guy doesn't need an expensive DAC, just a very good quality/value one to improve his listening pleasure. I trust the members here on that one. :b

____________________

* Richard, the Burr-Brown PCM-63, as you well know is a Colinear 20-bit Monolithic Audio D/A convertor (8 x 44.1khz; 8x oversampling).
And the PCM-1704K is a BiCMOS Sign-Magnitude 24-bit DAC, and running at 96kHz sampling Frequency rate.

And the way they are spec'ed reflect these facts, no? The architecture is different, the way to spec them is also different?

...And big price difference between these two DACs. But both are real good.

 

[opus111]

* Richard, the Burr-Brown PCM-63, as you well know is a Colinear 20-bit Monolithic Audio D/A convertor (8 x 44.1khz; 8x oversampling).
And the PCM-1704K is a BiCMOS Sign-Magnitude 24-bit DAC (Sigma/Delta type), and running at 96kHz sampling Frequency rate.

On the PCM1704, I know nothing of the sort. Its multibit, not sigma-delta. The datasheet says its good for up to 96kHz source material when running 8X OS.

And the way they are spec'ed reflect these facts, no? The architecture is different, the way to spec them is also different?

Which facts? The fiction of the PCM1704 being S-D type?

...And big price difference between these two DACs. But both are real good.

PCM63 is no longer in production, so not an option. But I'd sure recommend it over PCM1704 based on the published figures. BB added more bits (PCM63 is 20bits) but worsened published performance.

 

[NorthStar]

---Sorry Richard, "Sigma/Delta" was a mistake from my part (bad goggle).

And yes, good from 16kHz to 96kHz (PCM-1704).
The 1704 was been replaced by the TI BB PCM-1795 (used in some Onkyo/Integra higher end receivers and pre/pros).

And I sure well know that the PCM-63 ain't in production no more. But it is still very active in one of my CD players though (dual DACs and in conjunction with the PMD-100 digital filter/HDCD decoder).
...Very low jitter by the way from this CD player. :b

Ok now, so what DAC should be good for Jonathan's use? ...iPod, iPad, MP3, ...
Yeah, he should use FLAC and all the other hi res audio formats.
...And this is exactly where I can't help, because it is simply not my domain of expertise, but some members here are very well calibrated to help him out.

Please, some of you were already on the right track, do proceed as I'm eclipsing myself slowly.

_______

And by the way, eight times 44.1kHz equals 352.8khz. ...Not 384.
And eight times 96kHz equals 768kHz, good. :b

And me, like I said over a thousand times in the past, I prefer multiple of 22kHz (44kHz is CD; PCM) than multiple of 24kHz (48kHz is DAT). ...Easier implementation with less corrections (mathematical computation) and less anomalies like perhaps jitter.

 

[opus111]

The 1704 was been replaced by the TI BB PCM-1795 (used in some Onkyo/Integra higher end receivers and pre/pros).

Whether the PCM1795 has 'replaced' the PCM1704 is really very debatable. If it truly was a replacement then TI would have discontinued the 1704 - as yet they haven't though it still looks like touch and go. Fact is - even though the 1704 is around 20dB more expensive - many people still pay that extra money to get it. And as I understand it, its not just audiophiles who are so happy to hand over all that green folding stuff.

And I sure well know that the PCM-63 ain't in production no more. But it is still very active in one of my CD players though (dual DACs and in conjunction with the PMD-100 digital filter/HDCD decoder).
...Very low jitter by the way from this CD player. :b

You have a great player then - hang on to it and mod it rather than upgrade

Ok now, so what DAC should be good for Jonathan's use? ...iPod, iPad, MP3, ...

I honestly don't have a specific recommendation, mainly because I'm all too aware of the drawbacks of the various commercial offerings. That's one big reason I'm working on designing a DAC of my own, so at the very least I can suggest my design But its still months away from being finished and even when it is it probably won't be USB.

 

[NorthStar]

---I mentioned the PCM-1795 because we are now in the era of 32-bit and 192kHz.
And the PCM-1704 simply cannot handle that stuff. :b ...24/96 only.

But I'm with ya, the 1704 is a better sounding DAC; DAC for DAC sound.
And of course it costs ten times as much as the 1795, per unit!
...And the 1795 is a Stereo DAC (two-channel). ...The 1704 is a Mono DAC (one channel only).

...Why do you think I brought KINGWA (Audio-gd) into the equation earlier?
And you can forget that USB port all together, because the Master 7 also comes WITHOUT. :b

 

[opus111]

Again its debatable whether the PCM1704 can do justice to hi-res. It can do 192kHz for sure, just can't do it with 8X OS. But there's zero need for OS when the SR is as high as 192k - its best handled NOS. As for 32bits, I have my doubts that there's any information in bits below no. 21 or so in a typical hires recording anyway so a 24bit DAC is perfectly fine handling anything current or produced in the foreseeable future. The PCM1795 may well just be a marketing gimmick as regards handling 32bit in as there are parts of the datasheet which haven't been corrected from the earlier 24bit incarmation. For example:



Its a little embarrassing that some of TI's customers know better than TI what's good for them n'est ce pas? Hard for them to eat humble pie and admit that their new-fangled tech does some things worse than the old stuff.

 

[NorthStar]

---Well, we let the audio gurus (the DAC and CD/SACD manufacturers) sort it out for us.
And our job is to listen to their craft, pick our 'own' sound (according to our own set of particular ears), and pay what we believe is fair value for them ears (ours). :b
And the more experience we all have on this the better or musical listening life happiness is.

Assurance, certitude without ultimate persuasion rules! Only each person individually can determine this. Others can give us directions, but not destinations.
And it's all based on its own level of experience and comparing with all of his friends and girfriends.

But we'll never reach the other end of our own world, even less the vast universe of unlimited space...

And then, there was Music ... comin' from the four corners of the globe, all types of music ...

And the sounds were one with the stars ...

_______________________

We're talking about a recommended DAC for Jonathan's own system, and also for his own set of ears, and for the type of music and mediums he's listening to.
The Mytek DAC, any good for him?

 

[opus111]

---Well, we let the audio gurus (the DAC and CD/SACD manufacturers) sort it out for us.

What makes you think those guys really know what they're doing? In my experience the real gurus don't work for the manufacturers, they tend to work for themselves. And then the manufacturers approach the gurus to design and build something according to the manufacturer's specs, which nearly always suck because the manufacturers suck almost as much at listening to customers as they do at engineering design. So the guru's there working with one hand tied behind his or her back because the manufacturer has no wish to innovate, just slavishly follow their own perception of what the markets (probably actually the magazines) want.

Do I sound too cynical?

 

[NorthStar]

---I wanna see Jonathan now with a good recipe comin' from one of us.

 

[FrantzM]

No, you are not regular guys... You are all extremely highly knowledgeable guys that put entry guys like me to shame. Lol I have a lot to learn.

So why do you advise I don't need a DAC?

We, all were there at one point. We learned just like you will.
You need a DAC...
On the subject , I don't think you need to bother about SACD for now... I personally don't think it superior to Higher resolution PCM digital... The vast majority of recordings on this planet are done in PCM... The vast majority of music sold is on CD (again PCM). I am certain Jay-Z or Talib Kwali or any hip artist you want to think of have never issued anything on SACD or DSD. Mke sure the DAC you choose can do more than CD rate though at least 24/96 .. The Mytek can do DSD too and high Res PCM.

Not to make things too complicated and confuse you, I would recommend 4 DACs, Two I use and Two I have heard great things about:

M2Tech Young ...
MyTek 192 DSD
Benchmark DAC-1
Used Berkeley DAC Amir is willing to part with

I have #1 but if I did find the proper deal would have gone for #4, I owned the preamp version of the Benchmark DAC-1.

Any of these DACs are well regarded in the audiophile community and a substantial improvement over your CD player. How much is really a subjective call, it depends but most people who have gone for a serious DAC don't look back ...

 

[Jmorello]

We, all were there at one point. We learned just like you will.
You need a DAC...
On the subject , I don't think you need to bother about SACD for now... I personally don't think it superior to Higher resolution PCM digital... The vast majority of recordings on this planet are done in PCM... The vast majority of music sold is on CD (again PCM). I am certain Jay-Z or Talib Kwali or any hip artist you want to think of have never issued anything on SACD or DSD. Mke sure the DAC you choose can do more than CD rate though at least 24/96 .. The Mytek can do DSD too and high Res PCM.

Not to make things too complicated and confuse you, I would recommend 4 DACs, Two I use and Two I have heard great things about:

M2Tech Young ...
MyTek 192 DSD
Benchmark DAC-1
Used Berkeley DAC Amir is willing to part with

I have #1 but if I did find the proper deal would have gone for #4, I owned the preamp version of the Benchmark DAC-1.

Any of these DACs are well regarded in the audiophile community and a substantial improvement over your CD player. How much is really a subjective call, it depends but most people who have gone for a serious DAC don't look back ...

ok, this is great! I will 1st see what Amir can offer me and from there make a final choice. Maybe I can get more equip in the future from Amir which can help him consider a better prove now to Forster that future highly possible opportunity. If not I will make sure to check out the rest of your list to make a purchase.

Thank you all! Was fun to read all your responses. I own a few professional hair beauty brands so if any of your wives Or daughter needs products here is you chance to finally deliver something thier interested in rather than show up to the house with bulky speakers and enough gear to make a sound studio out of your living room. Call it a peace offering! Lol

Jonathan

 

[Jmorello]

---- Oui, je suis Quebecois pure laine (pres de Montreal); mon nom c'est Robert (Bob here). :b
...Maintenant en Colombie Britannique pour plus de trente-sept annees.

Wow, small world! I am a west island boy now living in the old port of Montreal. Beautiful place!

 

[NorthStar]

---Bonne chance Jonathan; da was fun. :b

* And thanx to Frantz's post just above; that sums up pretty much the final score. :b
...And perhaps you'll have a great deal from Amir. :b

P.S. Enough smilies for you? ...I'm sorry, I'm just a happy guy most of the time. :b

Take good care my friend, and we're always here for you, plus we luv to chat about our passions in life, including listening to music, so feel totally at ease anytime the inspiration comes to you.
...It doesn't have to be the best inspiration to discover the best in life.

Bob

 

[Jmorello]

---Bonne chance Jonathan; da was fun. :b

* And thanx to Frantz's post just above; that sums up pretty much the final score. :b
...And perhaps you'll have a great deal from Amir. :b

P.S. Enough smilies for you? ...I'm sorry, I'm just a happy guy most of the time. :b

Take good care my friend, and we're always here for you, plus we luv to chat about our passions in life, including listening to music, so feel totally at ease anytime the inspiration comes to you.
...It doesn't have to be the best inspiration to discover the best in life.

Bob

Super! I will come back soon with more questions.

Take care,

Jonathan

 

[dallasjustice]

The latest Hifi Critic reviewed the Lampizator. I wish I could post it but there's no electronic copy available to my knowledge. It was ugly. Basically the reviewer said the Lampy fell apart when presented with complex music. It shone only when playing simple recordings.

 

[NorthStar]

---That ain't good, not at all.

 

[daytona600]

The latest Hifi Critic reviewed the Lampizator. I wish I could post it but there's no electronic copy available to my knowledge. It was ugly. Basically the reviewer said the Lampy fell apart when presented with complex music. It shone only when playing simple recordings.

Dallas i can scan my copy of hifi critic and email a copy to you if required

 

[dallasjustice]

Dallas i can scan my copy of hifi critic and email a copy to you if required

I have it too.