Can we actually discuss What is Best on this forum?

[Elliot G.]

I hear you and I agree but if it was here they'd want to know if he's tasted all the pasta in the world before eating it!

david

and want measurements David LMAO

 

[andromedaaudio]

I think you missed the point entirely or I failed to make it clearly. It is not just for me but it is for others too. This is what makes the best the best in a more general sense. Nothing survives the test of time in something as fickle and subjective as audio on just the opinion of one person.

I am asking if it’s possible to discuss the rare products that go beyond that. If something is still held up years later, it seems to me that it is more than just the subjectivity of one or a few people. I guess few people want to understand what makes these products like the Neuman cartridge special. To me this is what is fascinating about the gear side of the hobby.

What DACs or speakers touted as best today will be held up as still competitive in the future? If there are any, what is special about them and why do people agree on it. Some seem utterly uninterested in this or even the possibility of discussing it on this very uniquely named forum.

I get criticizing the messenger, I am used to it by now. What I don’t understand is the lack of interest in the subject, but I am beginning to get glimpses as to why.

Peter if you transfer 20 euros to my acount ill wholehartedly agree you have the best system on the planet lol

 

[PeterA]

Look i m happy with the system i have at home ,but i would never call it the best or the most natural sounding .
My System has to play Tiesto well and sound good with Movies /Cinema , ... why because i like it, and your Horn or a Bionor aint gonna cut it on that sort of music
Plus why would i call it the best , it only attracts conflict

I never called my speakers or the Bionors the best or the most natural. The Bionors are better and the best I have heard. They may well be better than all others. I do not know. I have ideas about why and would like to understand them better. I have always contented there are different levels of natural sound and gear.

 

[Elliot G.]

Maybe food is different than audio?

I know I make the best baked salmon even if I never had Peter’s baked salmon. And I didn’t even go to chef school over the weekend.

I don't think it is. we may have more ego involved but look at it up close and its not.
Taste is something that is learned and developed, or not!
Your tastes change as you grow and get more experience and opportunity.
Different people prefer different things. There is no one food that everyone agrees is the best.
What is the absolute cheeseburger? or pizza?or ice cream?? or risotto?

Isn't the experience of someone from California different than someone from Japan? DO they even have the same opportunities?

So Ron,
What if I don't like Salmon?
What if I am a Vegetarian?
Only a Carnivore?
Fast Food junkie?
French food snob?
or I am Italian or Jewish?

These semantic discussions and the distortion of words are fruitless and have become IMO boring and have hijacked the whole damn website.

 

[ddk]

and want measurements David LMAO

Do you want his waist size ?

david

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Come on Mike. @Mike Lavigne. What is your recipe? Any best dish. Let's hit a restart button. Clean slate.

All the regulars hit restart.

ok......i'll jump in.....no life jacket...

there are listening rooms that are talked about, and rooms that are unknown to us. there are rooms with non conventional driver types (dipoles, horns, omni's, planars) which somewhat play by different rules and so the room is less a part of the presentation. but for conventional dynamic box speakers i do think my room is at the very top. there might be many rooms like mine, or none other. it is hard to really know that, as it's the hardest thing to be able to access about other's systems, and spend the time in anyone's room to fully appreciate what it's really doing. mostly when people are in my room for multiple days is when what it is capable of, is fully realized. it is uncompromised. maybe no singular thing is perfect in the room, but all aspects are toward the top level......so there is nothing limiting. and my expectations for building the room was that big music could fully breathe, yet the musical touch of intimate music also be optimized. so a balanced room. it has the size, shape, isolation both in geographic location, separate building, and room within a room. construction is stout, speaker end reinforced, concrete floor, HVAC quiet, AC Grid isolated. no painted surfaces, all hardwood, much built in dispersion, some built in bass trapping. wood glued over concrete at the speaker end, carpet over concrete the rear 2/3rd's.

almost all those attributes were there in 2004 when it was originally built, but it took me until 2015 to really get it all to work right. visitors prior to that time only heard a hint of what it now does.

i've written about my room journey many times, so sorry if this is a bore. but to me everything starts here. when i am system building i feel that i have an advantage in that whatever i do, get's a boost with my room. maybe my priorities are also skewed by where i expect the music to take me. i might add pieces that enhance capabilities of my room that i am mindful of. but are not relevant to others.

is it the best of the best? no way to know that. but i do believe it's the room that has received the greatest effort and energy to be what it can be. obviously my room is optimized to my personal taste, so it's not going to please everyone. nor was that my intent. and i certainly respect that many prefer listening in more of a conventional normal living space.....or maybe a room with a view.....and not an isolated uncompromised dedicated room. YMMV.

 

[Elliot G.]

Do you want his waist size ?

david

lol

 

[PeterA]

Thank you Mike. You have the experience and the confidence to make a declaration. It is these kinds of expressions that make me want to come and listen. I’m less pulled by descriptions from others who say everything is compromised and they are dealing with all the trade offs and satisfied.

I don’t question personal satisfaction. It’s good that people enjoy what they have. We are all there to some extent. My curiosity lies with the next level and what it is about something like a cartridge or a room that makes it extremely good or better than the rest.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Thank you Mike. You have the experience and the confidence to make a declaration. It is these kinds of expressions that make me want to come and listen. I’m less pulled by descriptions from others who say everything is compromised and they are dealing with all the trade offs and satisfied.

I don’t question personal satisfaction. It’s good that people enjoy what they have. We are all there to some extent. My curiosity lies with the next level and what it is about something like a cartridge or a room that makes it extremely good or better than the rest.

the most important thing about a room, and what can make it great, is that it does not limit your system building goals. it should fully support those. we tend to grow past our rooms. then we have to settle.

nothing wrong with settling. but it's lots of fun to not settle.

it's like any piece of hifi gear, or even media, they should not end up limiting things. it's why many of us love vinyl. it seems like the vinyl format keeps delivering more and more as you improve your set-up and pieces. crazy how great it can be. rooms are the same.

 

[Elliot G.]

ok......i'll jump in.....no life jacket...

there are listening rooms that are talked about, and rooms that are unknown to us. there are rooms with non conventional driver types (dipoles, horns, omni's, planars) which somewhat play by different rules and so the room is less a part of the presentation. but for conventional dynamic box speakers i do think my room is at the very top. there might be many rooms like mine, or none other. it is hard to really know that, as it's the hardest thing to be able to access about other's systems, and spend the time in anyone's room to fully appreciate what it's really doing. mostly when people are in my room for multiple days is when what it is capable of, is fully realized. it is uncompromised. maybe no singular thing is perfect in the room, but all aspects are toward the top level......so there is nothing limiting. and my expectations for building the room was that big music could fully breathe, yet the musical touch of intimate music also be optimized. so a balanced room. it has the size, shape, isolation both in geographic location, separate building, and room within a room. construction is stout, speaker end reinforced, concrete floor, HVAC quiet, AC Grid isolated. no painted surfaces, all hardwood, much built in dispersion, some built in bass trapping. wood glued over concrete at the speaker end, carpet over concrete the rear 2/3rd's.

almost all those attributes were there in 2004 when it was originally built, but it took me until 2015 to really get it all to work right. visitors prior to that time only heard a hint of what it now does.

i've written about my room journey many times, so sorry if this is a bore. but to me everything starts here. when i am system building i feel that i have an advantage in that whatever i do, get's a boost with my room. maybe my priorities are also skewed by where i expect the music to take me. i might add pieces that enhance capabilities of my room that i am mindful of. but are not relevant to others.

is it the best of the best? no way to know that. but i do believe it's the room that has received the greatest effort and energy to be what it can be. obviously my room is optimized to my personal taste, so it's not going to please everyone. nor was that my intent. and i certainly respect that many prefer listening in more of a conventional normal living space.....or maybe a room with a view.....and not an isolated uncompromised dedicated room. YMMV.

Bravo Mike.
I have experienced casa Lavigne and he indeed has a wonderful room and listening space. The result was truly wonderful.
Let me say , sans life jacket as well, that here we have another clear cut difference in experience and opportunity.
A dedicated room with a mature properly working system is a very different cheeseburger than a system installed in a compromised living or family room. The point is the experience of the listen is different and "their" bests are totally different. THe room is a HUGE factor and with it the ability to hear is changed. In a good space its positive in a bad space its negative.

 

[PeterA]

the most important thing about a room, and what can make it great, is that it does not limit your system building goals. it should fully support those. we tend to grow past our rooms. then we have to settle.

nothing wrong with settling. but it's lots of fun to not settle.

it's like any piece of hifi gear, or even media, they should not end up limiting things. it's why many of us love vinyl. it seems like the vinyl format keeps delivering more and more as you improve your set-up and pieces. crazy how great it can be. rooms are the same.

This is what I have learned with better cartridges and turntables. The information is in the grooves waiting to be extracted. Some devices are better at this than others. I suppose rooms are similar, but often people have restriction and can only go so far. I went backwards when trying to improve my room acoustics and ended up throwing it all away. I made the same mistakes with power and other things. We learn and move forward.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

This is what I have learned with better cartridges and turntables. The information is in the grooves waiting to be extracted. Some devices are better at this than others. I suppose rooms are similar, but often people have restriction and can only go so far. I went backwards when trying to improve my room acoustics and ended up throwing it all away. I made the same mistakes with power and other things. We learn and move forward.

don't want to go too far down the room rabbit hole, but certainly modestly sized listening rooms are tricky to mess with. too many variables to predict where it goes until you try it. messes with your head. and you being a methodical perfectionist of the highest order (and i'm giving you a total complement), it's frustrating.

know that it took me a full 10 years to sort out my "perfect" room, and i was full tilt boogie on it all the time. i took a few wrong turns, and what fixed things at one point to my thinking, ended up in my way later. (we evolve as our systems and rooms evolve).

so i can relate. it's who we are.

 

[Al M.]

Al, how can you truly know my intent? I have explained it and we act the way we do. Why criticize an approach that differs from how you might have done it? The vital point is that I did it on my own and started this discussion. My methods are mine to choose



I think we more or less hear the same, but some of us focus on parts and bits and pieces, while others listen more holistically and for balance. Regardless of these differences and different contexts, I do strongly feel that somethings rise above the rest and have a sort of universal appeal for reasons I’ve already explained. These are the things that stand the test of time and are held up and revered






My speakers and two of my cartridges are vintage. My electronics are older versions of products still available and my turn tables made three years ago. The wires are no longer available but I don’t think I would consider them vintage. I do not think my system has a better system but rather a blend of all the new for a particular result.



That post is an example of different people discussing top turntables. I shared it to illustrate the different ways and which people describe what they hear and what is a value to them and it provides insight into the nature of the turntables and their quality.

I am not ignoring what other people have written. I have read it and think about it and consider it. I don’t happen to agree with all of it. This thread is not about me versus the world. I simply started a topic and I want to see what other people think about it. And I contribute how and when I decide. I’m not telling you or others what to say or how to think or when to respond.

This is not about me, this is about the nature of our discussions and the title of this thread.

There used to be a time, Peter, when you were interested in genuine discussion.

Yet it appears quite evident that nowadays you are only interested anymore in spreading the gospel of Natural Sound(tm).

 

[Al M.]

I contend that the very best gear has fewer trade-offs which makes it more difficult to discuss its strengths and weaknesses and attributes. These are the products take get you right to the music and do not announce their presence in the system. Have you heard the Neuman cartridge, the one product I have nominated or claimed is the best of its type? It is exactly as I described, without the character that one hears from almost all other cartridges and has to make a decision about what given attributes fit a personal preference system balance. That cartridge is not like that. It just is and presents the music as it is retrieved from the grooves. Is a very unique product in my experience.

I could say the same thing about the Lyra Atlas SL Lambda cartridge, which I have extensive experience with in a now optimized system, more than you do. Would I claim that it's "the best"? No.

 

[PeterA]

I could say the same thing about the Lyra Atlas SL Lambda cartridge, which I have extensive experience with in a now optimized system, more than you do. Would I claim that it's "the best"? No.

I understand Al. I would agree with that assessment as I would with all other cartridges I have owned and heard, except for the Neumann.

You have answered the questions I posed in the OP and given your reasons. Thank you.

I am able to discuss what is best with some but not with others, so in that sense I have learned something from this thread conversation.

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . . the best I have heard.

Adding this qualification increases the intellectual honesty of our statements.

 

[Audire]

PeterA said:
. . . the best I have heard.

Adding this qualification increases the intellectual honesty of our statements.

And “the best I heard” adds weight because of someone like Peter who has the type experience that many trust - including me.

 

[MadFloyd]

PeterA said:
. . . the best I have heard.



And “the best I heard” adds weight because of someone like Peter who has the type experience that many trust - including me.

Well maybe that's part of the problem. Certain people here are very highly trusted when maybe they shouldn't be (just because they claim to know what they're doing). Say that you know all there is to know about something often enough and people start believing you. Brainwashing. We've seen crazy examples of this in the US over the past 4 years or so.

I'm not talking about Peter for the record (no pun intended).

 

[bonzo75]

Am revisiting my cartridge

Adding this qualification increases the intellectual honesty of our statements.

I am the most intelligent, smartest, wittiest, and best looking guy I know

 

[bonzo75]

I am revisiting my cartridge preferences based on tonearms (especially LTs) and SUTs.