Can we actually discuss What is Best on this forum?

Sure there are absolute truths that stand in and of themselves in high-end audio whether we believe them or not. For example.

- Every last playback system consumes electrical energy and generates vibrations.

- Even though electrical and mechanical energies are requirements, both energies can potentially generate unwanted energies.

- Not sufficiently addressing unwanted energies can compromise what we hear in the room.

- High-end audio is actually a combined effort between two primary sectors. The fidelity of electrical signal processing perhaps starting all the way back at the utility company and ending at the speaker drivers and the fidelity of the mechanical signal starting at the speaker drivers then interfacing with a given room's acoustics inclduing any room acoustic anomalies.

- The electrical signal inputs will be converted to mechanical signal outputs at the speaker drivers and ultimately converted to acoustic signal outputs as the speakers interface with the room's acoustics.

- A counterfeit is never identical to the original.

- Every component requires an electrical connection to its adjacent component all the way to the speaker drivers.

- Distortions (inferiorities) of various types exist and some will sonically impact our playback presentations.

- Some distortion types will more severely impact soncis than other types.

- A resulting high-end audio playback presentation is essentially a 1-way street implying that energy whether electrical or mechanical is traveling in one direction - provided such energies travels are not trapped or impeded.

- Energy's first order of behavior is to travel.

- When an energy's ability to travel is trapped or impeded, it will begin to release its energy within the confined spaced and impact other areas.

- Even though the electrical signal processing sector MAY influence the downstream outcome of the speaker / room interface, the downstream speaker / room interface cannot influence the upstream electrical signal processing - with the exception of unwanted energies.

- There exists superior as well as inferior materials, designs, principles, philosophies, methods, etc and combinations thereof.

- There's no guarantee that we're always measuring the right things, that we're always measuring correctly, and there's no guarantee that even if we were measuring the right things we're always sufficiently understanding any such findings.

- Not everybody can be right or correct.

- If there exists superior and inferior means, then there also exists the ability to be more right and more wrong than others.

- Human beings are competitive by nature and it's nonsensical to think or espouse such comtetitive spirits cease when it comes to high-end audio.

- Since our collective responses in high-end audio forums summarily prove that we're rather diverse regarding most every aspect of high-end audio including our ability to discern / interpret what we hear, a consensus proves nothing whatsoever.

- A belief held or practice executed a certain way over many years is not proof that the belief or practice was ever correct.

- Positive results from the implementation of a product employing an inferior design, principle, material, execution, and/or method is not proof that the product is genuinely superior. Rather, it only proves it's genuinely less inferior than its competition.

- The amount of money spent on an endeavor proves little or nothing. At least from a performance perspective.

- Every last recording is inferior to the original performance.

- Every last playback presentation is inferior to the music info embedded in a given recording.

- Every last wire, component, speaker, and system is less than perfect.

- Extreme results can only occur by extreme efforts. Never by token or half-assed efforts. Unless of course the planets happen to be in perfect alignment.

- Years of experience is no guarantee one is more right/correct than another.

- Nobody is completely objective. Especially those who pretend to be.

- Unknowns always exist.

Just to list a few. So even though high-end audio may well be as subjective a hobby as it gets, there still remains a remnant of absolute truths we can hang our hats on. And presumably it's imperative that we recognize and understand some of these absolute truths if one is to take performance seriously.


Hardly. Such "best" items can and do exist in perhaps every sector of life whether or not anybody (including the original designer) possesses the ability to recognize them as such.


Indeed, each of us can and do possess different tastes and preferences, different levels of understanding and abilities to discern / interpret what we hear. But by no means does that negate any such absolutes of what we could, should, or ought to hear.
I think you misunderstand me, in my comment i didn't refer to mechanical or electrical measurements or ranking, never the less, can one tell which is absolutely the better speaker just from their specs? - is Magico M3 better or worse than Zellalton's Klassik stage, or maybe Avangard G3 is better (or worst) than the other two?

Can one tell which music is absolutely better - classic, western, rock, prog, jazz can you absolutely name the better music from the rest?

I have 2 wonderful DAC's, in my setup, one is better for vocal songs the other is better for electronic and contemporary music, can you say which of the 2 DAC's is Absolutely better than the other overall - I sure can not, and that's why I have both of them.
 
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i think you missed understand me, i never meant to in my reply to regarding mechanical or electricity, never the less can you tell me which is the better speaker just from specs - is Magico M3 better or worse than Zellalton's Klassik stage, or maybe Avangard G3 is better (or worst) both of those?

which music is absolutely better - classic, western, rock, prog, jazz can you absolutely name the better music from the rest?

have 2 wonderful DAC's, one is better at vocal songs the other is better in electronic and contemporary music, can you say which of the 2 DAC's is Absolutely better than the other overall - i sure can (that's why i have both of them)

Perhaps I did misunderstand you and if I did I apologize. All your Illustrations above are subjective examples of what is best to a particular person. And that’s ok. But it’s not the same as saying these are the world’s best. One couldn’t possibly state what the world‘s best is, as no one person has heard every single combination of possibilities in existence.

I do agree there are standards that we should go by that are considered the best “right now” by someone. But even these are subjective. They aren't perfect and are subject to change …
 
I have 2 wonderful DAC's, one is better at vocal songs the other is better in electronic and contemporary music, can you say which of the 2 DAC's is Absolutely better than the other overall - i sure can (that's why i have both of them)

Yes, and if and when you find a DAC that has the best qualities of both your DACs and none of the compromises, will you not think that other DAC is better? This process continues, and most products will fall by the wayside to be forgotten. The few, however, will remain over time and will continue to compete with the best of the future. These are the rare, the survivors, the coveted, and they will be studied and learned from. And they are the ones people will continue to talk about.
 
Yes, and if and when you find a DAC that has the best qualities of both your DACs and none of the compromises, will you not think that other DAC is better? This process continues, and most products will fall by the wayside to be forgotten. The few, however, will remain over time and will continue to compete with the best of the future. These are the rare, the survivors, the coveted, and they will be studied and learned from. And they are the ones people will continue to talk about.

Legends come and go.

While we may speak of them in the future, as we do dinosaurs today, they were never the world’s best, otherwise they would still be manufactured by somebody. If enough of those in the marketplace desired them they’d still be made. They may have been “a standard” “for some” for “a time,” but sooner or later something different and more substantial - i.e. better - will come along to replace them. It wasn‘t the best, just a lily pad for the audio frog to leap to the next pad.

In 500 years or so, DACs may not even be used anymore. Systems of the future may consist of a nano chip in both ears that can be adjusted (for a price) to suit the listener. Who knows what advancements the distant future of audio will bring! With the advancing technology today there seems to be no limits - just limited imaginations … Technology is on a journey for the best but it’s an endless cycle as there will always a better system ….
 
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Legends come and go.

I guess you have not heard the Neumann cartridge in a superb system or a pair of Bionors driven by Lamm SETs. These have been legends for decades and I suspect will continue to be so for years to come. The original American Sound turntable from the 1970s is a legend too. Very few have heard it. When one has touched and heard these, he will understand. Just read the reports from those who have. Few items get such universal praise over so many years and still compete with the best of today.
 
I guess you have not heard the Neumann cartridge in a superb system or a pair of Bionors driven by Lamm SETs. These have been legends for decades and I suspect will continue to be so for years to come. The original American Sound turntable from the 1970s is a legend too. Very few have heard it. When one has touched and heard these, he will understand. Just read the reports from those who have. Few items get such universal praise over so many years and still compete with the best of today.

You are right, I’ve never heard one and likely never will (but I wish I could). And I’m sure you (and others) were absolutely impressed by it when you heard it. I’m envious to say the least.

But it’s still doesn’t make it the world’s best. It’s still a subjective opinion, based upon limited experience. There will always be something that is better. The fact you haven't heard it yet doesn’t mean it doesn’t already exist, or that it won‘t in the future….

It is my opinion, a cart only sounds as good as the equipment associated with it. Many things affect it’s sound. Different combos of carts with various tonearms on numerous types of tables all give a different sound. Then there’s the different platforms, and various rooms, etc. No one has heard all the combos. How do we know that a better than Neumann doesn’t already exit?
 
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The original American Sound turntable from the 1970s is a legend too. Very few have heard it. When one has touched and heard these, he will understand. Just read the reports from those who have. Few items get such universal praise over so many years and still compete with the best of today.

It is hard to see how something can be legendary when so few have not just heard it, but heard of it. I bet very few outside the WBF/DDK circle have even heard of the American Sound 1000 turntable. Has it been repeatedly lauded in the mainstream magazines? I doubt it.

Contrast that with the truly legendary Linn Sondek LP 12 turntable. Every audiophile has heard of it, and there is even a Wikipedia article on it:


From the article:
Hi-Fi Choice reviewers voted the LP12 "the most important hi-fi component ever sold in the UK"[2] and The Absolute Sound ranked it the second most significant turntable of all time in 2011.[3]

In the above cited Absolute Sound list of The Ten Most Significant Turntables of All Time the American Sound 1000 is not mentioned:

 
It is hard to see how something can be legendary when so few have not just heard it, but heard of it. I bet very few outside the WBF/DDK circle have even heard of the American Sound 1000 turntable. Has it been repeatedly lauded in the mainstream magazines? I doubt it.

Contrast that with the truly legendary Linn Sondek LP 12 turntable. Every audiophile has heard of it, and there is even a Wikipedia article on it:


From the article:
Hi-Fi Choice reviewers voted the LP12 "the most important hi-fi component ever sold in the UK"[2] and The Absolute Sound ranked it the second most significant turntable of all time in 2011.[3]

In the above cited Absolute Sound list of The Ten Most Significant Turntables of All Time the American Sound 1000 is not mentioned:


Al

You are being a bit harsh. It's part of the famous " Natural Sound " TM. ;)
 
Al

You are being a bit harsh. It's part of the famous " Natural Sound " TM. ;)

Hehe, I know...

Regardless, I am proud to have Unnatural Sound(TM).
 
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Yes, and if and when you find a DAC that has the best qualities of both your DACs and none of the compromises, will you not think that other DAC is better? This process continues, and most products will fall by the wayside to be forgotten. The few, however, will remain over time and will continue to compete with the best of the future. These are the rare, the survivors, the coveted, and they will be studied and learned from. And they are the ones people will continue to talk about.
Which is "better", MSB Select 2 or WADEX reference? - I heard both on several occasions and setups and still can't decide which of the two is absolute the better one.

Which is the better fighter plane - F16 or F15 or F18 ?, Each one of them is great at certain tasks while the others are better in other aspect there is no one plane best at all criteria and best for all missions, it all depends on the needs and mission.
 
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But it’s still doesn’t make it the world’s best. It’s still a subjective opinion, based upon limited experience. There will always be something that is better. The fact you haven't heard it yet doesn’t mean it doesn’t already exist, or that it won‘t in the future….

This is a very unique argument: nothing can be the best because we can not know if something in the future might be better? That is brilliant.

Al argued that the newest telescope in space is the best. I guess you just told him he is wrong.
 
I sure hope anyone dropping $250,000-$300,000 on a dac replacing his older one knows the new dac is better.
 
Let's all agree there is a set of the better ones, a set of mediocre ones, and a set of really sh*t ones
 
Let's all agree there is a set of the better ones, a set of mediocre ones, and a set of really sh*t ones
No. Cannot agree on that either bonz. There is always a unique argument not able to decide which set is which .... you happen to put mine in the mediocre ones.o_O
 
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Let's all agree there is a set of the better ones, a set of mediocre ones, and a set of really sh*t ones
Yes, a ”set” = a “group”, (not one best in the universe now and forever no question about it) but instead designating a set/group of the what the experts on this forum consider to be the best, another set/group of “mediocre” and another of the also ran’s.

Agree to “groups“ and all those unhelpful, anally-retentive, argument-for-the-sake-of-argument absolutist’s should (if they have any sense of shame) take their ball and go home, and by doing so allow the forums real experts to get on with providing us with their best opinions/advice that the bulk of us truly appreciate.
 
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I never belonged to a group in my life ,and i never will .
Its fine with me if there is a group on WBF who has the " best /most natural " sound as long as they dont pollute all other threads with it

I appreciate your optimism that this will ever happen. Something tells me it won't.
 
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Usually newest is better , okay your speakers might be an exception , because its fundamentally based on the same tech as todays transducers

Regarding telesopes i found a good one

View attachment 97597
I have a Meade telescope...can see Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, their moons and some smudgy galaxies....not quite Hubble or James Webb...
 
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