Can we actually discuss What is Best on this forum?

[Tango]

Oh puleeezee, Tang.

In your first paragraph you write about how we should just deal with the content of posts, but not attack the poster himself.

In the second paragraph you do just that, personally attack the poster.

And then, in the third paragraph, you half-heartedly try to smooth it over.

Well, there goes your credibility out the window.

Or was this whole post just a lousy joke?

What can I say AL. You read it that way. I will not talk back Sir. It would go in circle and will be talking directly about poster. If that is how readers feel about me so beit. That is how they see me. My credit. No need to address this to me.

 

[bonzo75]

What can I say AL. You read it that way. I will not talk back Sir. It would go in circle and will be talking directly about poster. If that is how readers feel about me so beit. That is how they see me. My credit. No need to address this to me.

this is good Tang, if you are not going to talk back to poster, gives me ideas

 

[spiritofmusic]

Less talk, more music? What could be more natural, and THE BEST idea yet on What's Best Forum?

 

[morricab]

Some know what they’re doing !

View attachment 97013

Ah! so this is why you think they are the best arms... they told you so!

 

[microstrip]

To make this forum a civil room where we can socialize without grudges. It is best not criticize or talk about the poster but the content he posted. If the way he post has some character that lead a reader to perceive of the poster, just keep it to oneself no need to tell off. Just accept how the posters are. You dont like you dont read when you see that poster show up. No need to say what you think of the poster publicly in the forum to keep it civil. I made a mistake a few times too and I learned. How one writes something in forum reflect how he/she is. Readers can read those reflection themself. No need to express in the open how you personally interpret or judge the poster. It is not good for both parties. And certainly risking personal confrontation and losing civility.

Surely, we fully agree on this point. I have often pointed to this aspect - please do not shoot the messenger. However, as you are doing now, many times we expose our ideas as a message to someone who is addressing the same subject. And surely if someone mainly tells "because this is my view of real" we are indirectly pointing at him and his own "real".

Another thing, why is it mandatory that we must write "imho" every time we write something. What a person write already declares by itself that it is his damn own opinion. it is him who writes it therefore his opinion. If I write "This is the best in the world" isnt this already my opinion? Why do I have to follow up with "imho" or "given my personal preference" every time. The readers are so stupid not knowing what he said was his opinion and his opinion derived from his set of preference or belief? I am not enforcing my opinion to others to accept and I dont care if they accept it or not. But I sure will respect his opinion if someone say something like that and wouldnt try to debate with him to win him over or convince him otherwise. You can write if you agree or not agree of the content but dont step beyond the boundary of content and into the zone of the poster himself.

I often write IMHO in points I know are controversial , to enhance a point or because I know otherwise some one will ask for proof. My style, my apologies I will not loose my time commenting yours. And yes, I know that our readers are mature enough to understand that there are many points of view in our threads and no one owns threads.

I apologize Micro. I use this space to say my general view. Your writing is somewhat a trigger but I am talking generally not directing my message to you.

No need to apologize. I am doing the same!

 

[Tango]

Surely, we fully agree on this point. I have often pointed to this aspect - please do not shoot the messenger. However, as you are doing now, many times we expose our ideas as a message to someone who is addressing the same subject. And surely if someone mainly tells "because this is my view of real" we are indirectly pointing at him and his own "real".



I often write IMHO in points I know are controversial , to enhance a point or because I know otherwise some one will ask for proof. My style, my apologies I will not loose my time commenting yours. And yes, I know that our readers are mature enough to understand that there are many points of view in our threads and no one owns threads.



No need to apologize. I am doing the same!

My respect to you sir.

 

[PeterA]

Peter, is this your thinking behind the opening post? Any proclamation of “best” based on some experience is as valid as any other proclamation of “best”? Each of us can happily — and validly — have our own “best”?

I thought you had something more specific, more consensus-based, in mind.

Well Ron, I’m not making anything, food or audio. I am assessing other peoples work and asking myself what I think is best. I’ve only done it for one cartridge. Not only for my own system but in a broader sense so that we can learn something from those products.

I’m also saying that the products that survive and remain coveted over long periods of time even 60 years if they remain the best you’ve heard there must be something about those products that makes them so special. This is in a broader more universal sense of the best. We should try to understand that something so that we can move forward as a hobby in our understanding of how to make good sounding components.

I saw so much pushback in the cartridge thread that I started this thread to ask a simple question can we discuss this topic in an attempt to learn something about the nature of discussions and why some people are willing to discuss it and others think it’s a taboo subject.

It is not just my opinion about what I like in a given context, but the opinions of those who are much more experienced and have different contexts. If the same products are held up and revered, that should mean something. As some people have now acknowledged in this thread, there are different levels of experience and knowledge, and those with the most have opinions that I think matter more. In other words, all opinions are not equally valid. I thought that was self evident but apparently not.

 

[Jay Jay French]

I am 70 years old and have owned "hifi" gear for well over 50 years. What is (or was) best at one time or another changes like the seasons change. What blew me away in 1967 didn't blow me away in 1970 and on and on.
My current system was unimaginable (in both reproduction and expense) as recently as 10 years ago. The retail cost of my first system in 1967 was $800. The current retail now is $140,000.00 and the point is this. I was happy in 1967, I'm happy now. The best is what makes you happy otherwise why bother. I have friends in the highest level of this industry which gives me access to hearing the most expensive (read advanced) gear in the world. This is what I can say: high end audio has always had a "sound". That sound continues to get refined. That sound is not the sound of 'real' . it's reproduced. It has and always will be reproduced. I decided long ago do discard the ridiculous HP created definition of the Absolute Sound (the sound of real instruments in real space) It is (regardless of how much one spends) ain't there yet and may never be but who cares? It is different and that is all that it means We all chase our tails over the (currently available) technology to obtain 'real'. Each new piece of gear gives us a thrill (for a while) then it passes and it's on to the next one.
Just sit back and enjoy your personal 'best'.

 

[andromedaaudio]

I am assessing other peoples work and asking myself what I think is best. " FOR ME "

See if you add " for me " then there is no issue at all .
But there are people on this site/ thread who wanna determine this for others and this is causing all issues / useless discussions.
Absolutism is what is causing all the friction

 

[PeterA]

Can we " discuss whats best on this forum " ??

Absolutely as long as its in line with the opinion of the " Experts " lol .

What makes one an expert? You make speakers. Are speaker manufacturers experts in that area? All, or some, or very few?

Personally, I view the contributions of some posters more than others based on their level of knowledge and experience. Same with any endeavor. This is why I do not think it is necessary to hear every speaker in every room to know when I am listening to something truly special. The best needs more evaluation and is the next level.

The Beyond Turntable sub forum should be read by anyone interested in turntables. Not because ddk wrote it but because someone with a lot of experience dared to share with others what he has learned over years of examination and inquiry. 2015 seems to have been a time when people could discuss the best on this forum without protests from those offended by the notion.

Perhaps if an expert at that level and not someone like me started this thread, it would have gone a bit better. Yes, experts matter because they know more and those with less knowledge can learn from them.

To respond to Madfloyd’s comment, I am awake and do think for myself. But I know full well when someone I meet knows more. And that is when I welcome and embrace the opportunity to learn. There are other such experts on WBF too.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Look i m happy with the system i have at home ,but i would never call it the best or the most natural sounding .
My System has to play Tiesto well and sound good with Movies /Cinema , ... why because i like it, and your Horn or a Bionor aint gonna cut it on that sort of music
Plus why would i call it the best , it only attracts conflict

 

[Mike Lavigne]

That is a good condidence Ron. Make me want to try your salmon. Does Tinka approve btw.

first off, Seattle is the home of salmon snobs. every other year i do the 'Buoy 10' salmon fishing. typically limit over 2 days (going the 29th and 30th of August this year). i come back with 30-50 pounds of fresh, just caught, salmon filets, but give it all away since my wife and i, only like Wild Alaska Salmon (Copper River the very best), and prefer the way we 'bake' it to any restaurant method.

my wife makes a foil 'boat', places the fresh salmon slab inside, with a particular organic dressing she buys, along with variable vegetables (fresh State of Washington organic asparagus our favorite). i make the foil 'boat cover'. i pre-heat my barbeque (on my covered porch so year around) to about 600 degrees, slide the 'covered boat' in for between 3.5-4.75 minutes (this is where the 'correct' time makes all the difference) depending on thickness of the filet. we like it a touch raw in the thickest part, where it flakes, but is dark pink. restaurants almost always over cook it. still good, but not superb.

tastes like candy. and the best food for you that there is.

 

[PeterA]

Peter, if you had a genuine interest in learning something, you would have acted differently.

Al, how can you truly know my intent? I have explained it and we act the way we do. Why criticize an approach that differs from how you might have done it? The vital point is that I did it on my own and started this discussion. My methods are mine to choose

Yet you did not even tryto engage with the argument of subjectivity of perception in hearing, and/or of subjectivity of preference and personal emphasis of certain aspects in reproduction, which was brought forth in varied ways and from different angles by Ron Resnick, Madfloyd, Audire, Microstrip, Morricab, myself and others. All of us have made the arguments in good faith and in a genuine spirit.

I think we more or less hear the same, but some of us focus on parts and bits and pieces, while others listen more holistically and for balance. Regardless of these differences and different contexts, I do strongly feel that somethings rise above the rest and have a sort of universal appeal for reasons I’ve already explained. These are the things that stand the test of time and are held up and revered

Instead, it is close to what Microstrip said (to "your own choices" I would add: "components that are in the (vintage or related) path you chose"):

My speakers and two of my cartridges are vintage. My electronics are older versions of products still available and my turn tables made three years ago. The wires are no longer available but I don’t think I would consider them vintage. I do not think my system has a better system but rather a blend of all the new for a particular result.

The most obvious example for this is post #28, where you ignore anything that had been said before by others in this thread and instead emphasized "the best".

That post is an example of different people discussing top turntables. I shared it to illustrate the different ways and which people describe what they hear and what is a value to them and it provides insight into the nature of the turntables and their quality.

I am not ignoring what other people have written. I have read it and think about it and consider it. I don’t happen to agree with all of it. This thread is not about me versus the world. I simply started a topic and I want to see what other people think about it. And I contribute how and when I decide. I’m not telling you or others what to say or how to think or when to respond.

This is not about me, this is about the nature of our discussions and the title of this thread.

And yes, everything involves trade-offs. If the best audio gear didn't have weaknesses, it would sound like live music when it reproduces unamplified music. It does not. Yes, to some extent our gear might to us personally create a convincing illusion of the real thing (at least some of the time), but that is different.

I contend that the very best gear has fewer trade-offs which makes it more difficult to discuss its strengths and weaknesses and attributes. These are the products take get you right to the music and do not announce their presence in the system. Have you heard the Neuman cartridge, the one product I have nominated or claimed is the best of its type? It is exactly as I described, without the character that one hears from almost all other cartridges and has to make a decision about what given attributes fit a personal preference system balance. That cartridge is not like that. It just is and presents the music as it is retrieved from the grooves. Is a very unique product in my experience.

 

[Lagonda]

What can I say AL. You read it that way. I will not talk back Sir. It would go in circle and will be talking directly about poster. If that is how readers feel about me so beit. That is how they see me. My credit. No need to address this to me.

Sometimes you are full of fertilizer Tang !

 

[PeterA]

Yeah, we love our 'authority figures', don't we?

As you must recall, our Boston friends asked you your opinion about Covid and the vaccines. When you could not answer, or simply wanted support, you looked up and shared links to data and experts. You even referenced the authority figures at the CDC respecting their expertise.

Some think audio is different where everyone is an expert and every opinion is equally valid. I disagree with that notion. I respect those who have done the hard work and made the comparisons and know about alternatives and have heard most of the best the industry has to offer. Yes, they do have some authority.

Vladimir Lamm used the American Sound turntable for fifteen years to evaluate his designs. He used specific vintage speakers. He revered certain designs based on reputation and the word of others. These things have weight. People discuss what amps David Wilson used and what speakers Nelson Pass uses for a reason.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Ah! so this is why you think they are the best arms... they told you so!

when the sme 3012 saw the light of day that was also true, there were hardly any alternatives except maybe the RMG 309.
today i would think about the saying, because the selection has increased enormously. other mothers also have beautiful daughters

 

[ddk]

Ah! so this is why you think they are the best arms... they told you so!

Practical experience !

david

 

[PeterA]

See if you add " for me " then there is no issue at all .
But there are people on this site/ thread who wanna determine this for others and this is causing all issues / useless discussions.
Absolutism is what is causing all the friction

I think you missed the point entirely or I failed to make it clearly. It is not just for me but it is for others too. This is what makes the best the best in a more general sense. Nothing survives the test of time in something as fickle and subjective as audio on just the opinion of one person.

I am asking if it’s possible to discuss the rare products that go beyond that. If something is still held up years later, it seems to me that it is more than just the subjectivity of one or a few people. I guess few people want to understand what makes these products like the Neuman cartridge special. To me this is what is fascinating about the gear side of the hobby.

What DACs or speakers touted as best today will be held up as still competitive in the future? If there are any, what is special about them and why do people agree on it. Some seem utterly uninterested in this or even the possibility of discussing it on this very uniquely named forum.

I get criticizing the messenger, I am used to it by now. What I don’t understand is the lack of interest in the subject, but I am beginning to get glimpses as to why.

 

[marty]

tastes like candy. and the best food for you that there is.

Mike, that's just ridiculous. Everyone knows the best food for you is pizza.

 

[Kingsrule]

I am 70 years old and have owned "hifi" gear for well over 50 years. What is (or was) best at one time or another changes like the seasons change. What blew me away in 1967 didn't blow me away in 1970 and on and on.
My current system was unimaginable (in both reproduction and expense) as recently as 10 years ago. The retail cost of my first system in 1967 was $800. The current retail now is $140,000.00 and the point is this. I was happy in 1967, I'm happy now. The best is what makes you happy otherwise why bother. I have friends in the highest level of this industry which gives me access to hearing the most expensive (read advanced) gear in the world. This is what I can say: high end audio has always had a "sound". That sound continues to get refined. That sound is not the sound of 'real' . it's reproduced. It has and always will be reproduced. I decided long ago do discard the ridiculous HP created definition of the Absolute Sound (the sound of real instruments in real space) It is (regardless of how much one spends) ain't there yet and may never be but who cares? It is different and that is all that it means We all chase our tails over the (currently available) technology to obtain 'real'. Each new piece of gear gives us a thrill (for a while) then it passes and it's on to the next one.
Just sit back and enjoy your personal 'best'.

How are your ears after all the years playing heavy metal??