Can You Believe This-The Government Wants Us To Go EV but In So Doing They Will impose a gas surcharge

[Empirical Audio]

Two of the latest interesting articles ...

? https://www.treehugger.com/cars/no-wonder-so-many-people-are-still-trying-kill-electric-car.html

They keep saying in these articles that they are cheaper to operate, but no details. It's so simple to do the numbers.

The fact is that they are cheaper to operate, last longer and pollute less than a gas car, even when charged from fossil-fuel power.

• 1/3-1/4 the cost to operate over their life, saving you at least $36K over 200K miles
• 37% less emissions
• lasts 5X longer

It's a no-brainer. Just get one.

 

[DaveC]

...and pollute less than a gas car, even when charged from fossil-fuel power...

No Way!

You think running the numbers is so simple, but it's making the correct assumptions that is not so simple and subject to bias.

The thought that charging an electric car via fossil fuels is more efficient vs a regular ICE car is absurd. Your Tesla is probably worse than an ICE car all things considered.

 

[NorthStar]

Dave, that Nature article...pretty good...long though.

And no matter what we say, what they say...we're in it for good...EV.
ICE is running on empty...their last stretch.

 

[DaveC]

Elon Musk and Lex Fridman talking about autonomous driving and AI.

Musk: In the future people will think it was crazy to have people driving cars.

On what Musk would ask an advanced AI: What's outside the simulation?

 

[NorthStar]

Here where I live...British Columbia, Canada...self-driving no way, no go, and I think it's smart that way...anyway for now and the near future, not before the infrastructure permits it safely.

 

[Empirical Audio]

No Way!

You think running the numbers is so simple, but it's making the correct assumptions that is not so simple and subject to bias.

The thought that charging an electric car via fossil fuels is more efficient vs a regular ICE car is absurd. Your Tesla is probably worse than an ICE car all things considered.

I posted my analysis. Find the error.

 

[DonH50]

Speaking of infrastructure, what are folk doing for home chargers? I checked with our electric coop to see what a 60-A breaker addition would be and they essentially went nutso (requires upgraded service, and since the local distribution box is at capacity requires a new line and box, to the tune of $20k~$30k+, plus a $10k~$20k tap fee, plus a surcharge of ~$6k because it's winter and the ground is frozen).

I had a hard time wading through the Tesla site to find the charger requirements. Looks like ~11.5 kW/hr for 8-10 hours, which would be a big step up, but I have no idea the real amount of power it takes to charge these things. Based on range I would only need to fully charge it once or twice a week for just getting to work and back plus a few errands. Any of you owners have actual kW/hr usage and how many miles you drive a month? Trying to figure out the numbers.

I did look into solar power recently (thanks Steve!) but at an initial investment of $50k~$60k+ just can't justify it right now. I just want to know what to expect if I bought a Tesla. I have some friends with them so will check with them at some point.

Curious - Don

 

[Steve williams]

There are 3 ways to charge a Tesla

1. The easiest but longest is to use an ordinary AC outlet in your garage. This takes many hours to charge (usually overnight)

2. Use a Tesla wall connector

https://shop.tesla.com/product/silver-wall-connector

3. Supercharging station which is the quickest where a full charge can be obtained in a little over an hour

 

[Atmasphere]

No Way!

You think running the numbers is so simple, but it's making the correct assumptions that is not so simple and subject to bias.

The thought that charging an electric car via fossil fuels is more efficient vs a regular ICE car is absurd. Your Tesla is probably worse than an ICE car all things considered.

I built an electric car based on a 1990 Ford Ranger pickup some years back and in the process had to learn quite a lot about electric cars. @Empirical Audio is correct about the efficiency thing. There's a number called 'well to wheel' which takes into account the infrastructure that is needed to put an EV on the road and also an ICE car. What you are probably not taking into account is the economy of scale. When fossil fuels are used the transportation used to get them to the power generation plant is considerably cheaper than what is used to allow one to pump gas into a regular car. But the power plant itself has greater efficiency also due to its economy of scale as well- partly due to the fact that it doesn't use reciprocating internal combustion to run the generators.

In 2003 the point where gas was the same as electric (on a national averaged basis) was when gas was $1.65/gallon. At the time gas was costing more than that so there was a tipping point that was reached (apparently sometime in the 1990s) where EVs are simply less expensive to charge up. While electric generation has gotten more expensive too, its still the case today even if the only source is power derived from fossil fuels. This relates directly to the emissions produced as well.

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/02/19/electric-car-well-to-wheel-emissions-myth/

The beauty of EVs of course is that anything that makes electricity can charge them.

 

[DonH50]

There are 3 ways to charge a Tesla

1. The easiest but longest is to use an ordinary AC outlet in your garage. This takes many hours to charge (usually overnight)

2. Use a Tesla wall connector

https://shop.tesla.com/product/silver-wall-connector

3. Supercharging station which is the quickest where a full charge can be obtained in a little over an hour

Thanks Steve. The first option was not clear to me from their website; the wall connector seemed to be the only option under "home recharging". They say the wall connector needs a 60-A breaker and that led to expense. I envision overnight is fine most of the time for me, but the way the website reads you need a wall connector for fully charging from "zero" overnight. Day-to-day, presumably not.

Supercharging station is not an option for me -- none around, and way inconvenient. Charging infrastructure is one hurdle that needs to be surmounted (and yes it is, gradually).

 

[DaveC]

I built an electric car based on a 1990 Ford Ranger pickup some years back and in the process had to learn quite a lot about electric cars. @Empirical Audio is correct about the efficiency thing. There's a number called 'well to wheel' which takes into account the infrastructure that is needed to put an EV on the road and also an ICE car. What you are probably not taking into account is the economy of scale. When fossil fuels are used the transportation used to get them to the power generation plant is considerably cheaper than what is used to allow one to pump gas into a regular car. But the power plant itself has greater efficiency also due to its economy of scale as well- partly due to the fact that it doesn't use reciprocating internal combustion to run the generators.

In 2003 the point where gas was the same as electric (on a national averaged basis) was when gas was $1.65/gallon. At the time gas was costing more than that so there was a tipping point that was reached (apparently sometime in the 1990s) where EVs are simply less expensive to charge up. While electric generation has gotten more expensive too, its still the case today even if the only source is power derived from fossil fuels. This relates directly to the emissions produced as well.

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/02/19/electric-car-well-to-wheel-emissions-myth/

The beauty of EVs of course is that anything that makes electricity can charge them.

I've been trained on how to perform EROEI calculations, so I get it. It's the assumptions that EV supporters tend to use that are biased.

Her'e the simple answer... the process to generate power at a powerplant from fossil fuels, transmit it and use it to charge a battery is about as efficient as an ICE motor.

There are some exceptions. Hybrid cars are more efficient vs pure ICE and new natural gas turbines are amazingly efficient at somewhere over 60%. In the best case scenario these modern turbines, even with transmission and charging losses are indeed more efficient vs ICE, but not all fossil fuel plants are that efficient.

Also, the EROEI of fossil fuel extraction is about 95%, most folks want to quote a lower figure but I dispute that. 95% is the figure I've been given by world authorities on the subject.

The other issue with EVs is the energy cost to build and decommission them, which is far higher vs ICE and the environmental impact of the materials and manufacturing, which is FAR worse vs ICE, so EVs are starting at a massive disadvantage. A car like a Honda Fit costs a tiny fraction of what a Tesla model 3 costs to produce and as mentioned earlier recycling automotive battery packs hasn't even been figured out yet, so like spent nuclear fuel, let's just pretend that's not a factor?

Look, I'm considering buying a use Leaf as around-town transport and in the past I was a development engineer for Vestas' project management team. I designed assembly processes and lines for industrial wind turbine Nacelles and Hubs. I am very much in favor of mitigating climate change, but I'm simply not emotionally invested in EVs. IMO the subject is so emotional that maintaining neutrality is impossible for most people because they are so for or against the idea, and I hear ridiculous biased conclusions both ways all the time.

 

[DaveC]

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/02/19/electric-car-well-to-wheel-emissions-myth/

Lol, you can hear the bias dripping off of every word in that article. In the article the author seems to promote conspiracy theory that oil companies are spreading misinformation but completely misses on the fact "environmentalists" do so as well.

There have been recent studies showing not much difference in carbon emissions for EV vs ICE, one just posted in this thread that I'd argue is far more compelling than what's posted above.

IMO, it's splitting hairs and it doesn't matter, the only thing that's going to help is large scale changes on a societal level, such as not commuting to work, such as not shipping the average piece of food over 1000 miles from where it was produced, and switching to more local and organic food that isn't 100% reliant on oil to produce. The relationship between oil and food is so direct riding a bike has an equivalent MPG associated with it. You can calculate how much oil you use in the form of food calories to commute by bike.

I've started by working from home and living within a mile of food, rec center, etc. so I don't have to drive and even when I do it's generally a couple miles to go do an errand. My house is not ridiculously oversized either. A vast majority of the miles on my car are from recreation and not day to day routines. This is the kind of difference we need, not arguing over percentages of efficiency in how we power the two-ton land barges we seem to drive everywhere we go. We need to rethink what a healthy and sustainable lifestyle looks like.

 

[Empirical Audio]

Read it and weep.

 

[DaveC]

Read it and weep.

The statement of someone who only wants to be right, truth be damned.

 

[Atmasphere]

Lol, you can hear the bias dripping off of every word in that article. In the article the author seems to promote conspiracy theory that oil companies are spreading misinformation but completely misses on the fact "environmentalists" do so as well.

There have been recent studies showing not much difference in carbon emissions for EV vs ICE, one just posted in this thread that I'd argue is far more compelling than what's posted above.

IMO, it's splitting hairs and it doesn't matter, the only thing that's going to help is large scale changes on a societal level, such as not commuting to work, such as not shipping the average piece of food over 1000 miles from where it was produced, and switching to more local and organic food that isn't 100% reliant on oil to produce. The relationship between oil and food is so direct riding a bike has an equivalent MPG associated with it. You can calculate how much oil you use in the form of food calories to commute by bike.

I've started by working from home and living within a mile of food, rec center, etc. so I don't have to drive and even when I do it's generally a couple miles to go do an errand. My house is not ridiculously oversized either. A vast majority of the miles on my car are from recreation and not day to day routines. This is the kind of difference we need, not arguing over percentages of efficiency in how we power the two-ton land barges we seem to drive everywhere we go. We need to rethink what a healthy and sustainable lifestyle looks like.

I agree very much! When I bought my new house it had to be close enough to work that I could ride my bike. We didn't want it too large either. I maintain a Ford Expedition, but it only gets used for interstate trips. For local stuff I generally use my Insight.

As to oil companies spreading misinformation, I don't see you denying that, just pointing out that both sides do. Have you read 'Internal Combustion' by Edwin Black?

 

[Joe Whip]

I had a 240 line installed in the garage. We get 30 miles of range per hour of charge. In Pa our rates are not timed to the time of day unlike places like CA. If we want, we can have both cars at 80 or 90% SOC each morning. The savings vs. gas is amazing.

 

[DonH50]

I had a 240 line installed in the garage. We get 30 miles of range per hour of charge. In Pa our rates are not timed to the time of day unlike places like CA. If we want, we can have both cars at 80 or 90% SOC each morning. The savings vs. gas is amazing.

What size breaker? Were there any other code requirements, or did the electrician just run a 240 V line, then install an outlet and breaker in your electrical service (box with the breakers)?

 

[NorthStar]

Cost & all of installing an EV charger in your garage ...

• 2 levels /// https://www.realtor.com/advice/home-improvement/installing-electric-vehicle-charger/
* There is a 3rd level but I'm not sure if it is implemented yet.

• 2 voltages // https://homeguides.sfgate.com/can-electric-car-plugged-home-electricity-outlet-78896.html
_____

? https://www.greencarreports.com/new...r-electric-car-charging-what-you-need-to-know

"Installing an electric car station in the home can cost several thousand dollars. However, it's important to note how much money electric vehicle owners save just by driving a car that does not require gas. A typical electric vehicle owner will spend about $300 per year on electricity to charge their vehicle, versus the $1,000 to $2,500 they spend per year on gasoline.

This savings can build up over time. Once the charger installation and the electric vehicle itself are paid for, electric vehicle owners may spend far less on transportation than people who own gasoline-powered vehicles."

 

[rblnr]

I think the answer is easy Ron
1. Tesla’s battery has greater range than all the others
2 the price of the others is much higher than Tesla
3. The others lack the infrastructure for cross country charging
4 the tax credits IIRC disappear end of this year

I'd add a big 5. here, and that is that in every teardown, Tesla's circuit boards and other innards are thought to be some years ahead of their competitors. Audi basically acknowledged this at one point.

No doubt the Germans, etc. at some point will catch up, but at least at this moment, they are in first gen with the attendant problems of that vs. Tesla at gen 3 or 4.

Longtime owner of Tesla stock here (so take above as you will), though recently sold some. It's a volatile stock (in a shaky market IMO), and I will likely rebuy if/when a good drop occurs.

 

[DaveC]

As to oil companies spreading misinformation, I don't see you denying that, just pointing out that both sides do. Have you read 'Internal Combustion' by Edwin Black?

No but I'll check it out, thanks!