Can You Believe This-The Government Wants Us To Go EV but In So Doing They Will impose a gas surcharge

[Steve Williams]

postulations for fixing the world using a country with the most favorable balance of advantages seems not helpful.

it's like using Michael Jordan as how we all should be able to play basketball. quirks of fate are just that.....quirks.

Seriously Mike??

we are just going to have to agree to disagree.

 

[Steve Williams]

I can’t disagree Peter. We elect our government. If we don’t like our representatives we vote for someone else. I do understand your argument.
As for the expense of an EV I believe that most everyone refers to the Tesla but literally every car manufacturer is making an EV. If you don’t think that will result in better EV’s at lower prices then what will. The EV IMO seems to be evolving even quicker than the ICE did over 100 years ago. It’s the R and D done by all of these manufacturers that will help normalize the situation going forward. We all have choices. In medicine it is called informed consent. You look at benefits risks alternatives and complications and then for you make an informed decision. I truly respect what other people say. There just is no reason to be snarky about it. Where I live and on my street especially 90% of homeowners have gone solar and of those 1 in 4 has an EV. Many homes here have more than one. I still own two ICE’s but for me the hand writing is on the wall

 

[LenWhite]

As I stated in post #81, there's irrefutable evidence human activity is contributing the overwhelming majority of carbon emissions into the atmosphere. Climate scientists have substantiated that burning fossil fuels is the largest contributor and threat to global warming. If you don't believe this yet, start reading credible media sources. This planet is on fire and it appears many people just deny it. If this group of the population is high enough, those people will drive the rest of the world, at least their children and grandchildren, with them to a really bad place with no return.

Sure there's a lot of R&D that needs to be done to find viable alternatives to fossil fuels. But in the meantime the clock is running down to a time when the effects of catastrophic climate change will be irreversible. We're already well past the planning stage to begin seriously weaning ourselves off fossil fuel as an energy source. Every year that passes without developing and implementing plans will make the problem more existential.

Greta Thunberg has got it exactly right when she says adults have "got a lot of nerve" taking away the future of people her age.

 

[DaveC]

I don't understand how we can be this far apart on the subject.

It's really an engineering problem, of course as an engineer I see it that way... We have a problem, the earth is warming and causing a lot of issues. We all know what they are, and there's no denying it's a problem.

I don't know why we need to agree on causes, and get caught up in minutiae such as ICE vs battery tech that's in it's infancy, neither are appealing long term solutions to transportation. I think we can agree that a long term plan is needed to control our environment unless we want Earth to look like Mars or Venus. Why do we assume that Earth will be suitable for life long term? It started at some point, it can end too. And that's 100% "natural" but it doesn't mean it's good for humans.

The near total disregard shown for talking about solutions to the problem is concerning to me. I don't think we're headed in the right direction, I believe we need to put a lot more energy into global climate control technology that might include altering the atmosphere so it traps less heat as well as preventing all the photons from the sun from actually hitting the Earth. We need to be willing to talk about population and how we can get that under control to prevent large scale disease and pandemics from wiping out a big part of our population for us. We need to figure out how to prevent large scale extinction and how we can preserve our ecosystems and their diversity of species, because if that's lost the quality of life on Earth will be lower for good.

The solution to our problems has nothing to do with driving 5000 lb $100k+ luxo-yacht Teslas around. Or even $50k Model 3s... this tech needs to exist just as the 1st computers that took up entire buildings needed to exist, but I don't necessarily want to own one right now. Instead, I live in town and don't need to travel far for anything and I work from home so I don't need to commute. I try to eat local and support local food and business. IMO, this is much more impact vs buying an EV that has questionable environmental cred anyways. I own a sports car because that's one of my hobbies, and ironically I need it for mt biking too, but I don't need to drive hardly at all for work or necessities of life. What we need is a shift in lifestyle, not a shift in which massive land yacht we're gonna drive 16,000 miles a year!

 

[Empirical Audio]

Steve, I think this is precisely what some people are complaining about. We are not "free to make decisions as we see fit." The govt. is imposing taxes on the rest of us to subsidize EV sales to those who choose to buy EVs. This is not a free market and the EVs are too expensive for people to buy without the subsidies. Others think that is fine because society "benefits" just like it does when people without kids pay for the education of others' children. We elect the representatives and they make these decisions for us. So the world goes. We are free to criticise or complain about the decisions that are made for us by others, at least here.

The definition of freedom. You cannot criticize policy decisions in Russia or China without the fear of retribution or prison.

 

[Steve Williams]

Dave

I agree. Nothing wrong with being in its infancy. The longest journey has to start with the first small step. It is for this reason that I still have a sports car as I know something better and less money will be showing up in the very near future. You are truly seeing long term

 

[Empirical Audio]

The near total disregard shown for talking about solutions to the problem is concerning to me. I don't think we're headed in the right direction, I believe we need to put a lot more energy into global climate control technology that might include altering the atmosphere so it traps less heat as well as preventing all the photons from the sun from actually hitting the Earth. We need to be willing to talk about population and how we can get that under control to prevent large scale disease and pandemics from wiping out a big part of our population for us. We need to figure out how to prevent large scale extinction and how we can preserve our ecosystems and their diversity of species, because if that's lost the quality of life on Earth will be lower for good.

Placing your bet on carbon capture is like the roulette wheel. Your odds of winning are really low.

Every time humans have mucked with mother nature, it has backfired. Salmon hatcheries are killing the wild fish. The special elodea that was developed in Germany and adopted by Jacques Cousteau got loose in the Mediterranean and caused an environmental disaster. Pesticides are eradicating the bee population and bird population. Fracking and oil rig deep water pumping caused hundreds of earthquakes in states where there were two or three a year prior. Just stop. Even the smartest scientists don't understand the unintended consequences of these actions.

 

[Steve Williams]

FWIW .... for those who were making snide remarks about Norway I looked up the life expectancy of male and female in both countries

USA
Male 76 Female 81

Norway
Male 80.6 Female 84.3

Norway has a world life ranking of number 10 well above the USA


Is it the absence of emissions there or their happiness or both that give those statistics

 

[DaveC]

Placing your bet on carbon capture is like the roulette wheel. Your odds of winning are really low.

Every time humans have mucked with mother nature, it has backfired. Salmon hatcheries are killing the wild fish. The special elodea that was developed in Germany and adopted by Jacques Cousteau got loose in the Mediterranean and caused an environmental disaster. Pesticides are eradicating the bee population and bird population. Fracking and oil rig deep water pumping caused hundreds of earthquakes in states where there were two or three a year prior. Just stop. Even the smartest scientists don't understand the unintended consequences of these actions.

Absolutely true, but it's too late now... too many people.

I think it's possible attempts to change the Earth's climate may cause unintended consequences but we have to try and hope for the best. Human consciousness and intelligence needs to evolve to the point we can accomplish some of these goals without it backfiring.

Or you can be happy with simply driving your Tesla, a token attempt to be a "green" that means nothing and is surely worse vs driving a smaller ICE car.

 

[NorthStar]

Most of you like I listened to Greta's speech yesterday @ the UN.
And today's speech reading by Donald @ the UN.

We all know the air's situation in China, in California, in big industrial world's cities.
We all are fully aware of gas emissions (CO2).
Oil controlled power is driving our planet upside down.
It's time to get rid of it quick, it's worth it.

 

[Empirical Audio]

Absolutely true, but it's too late now... too many people.

I think it's possible attempts to change the Earth's climate may cause unintended consequences but we have to try and hope for the best. Human consciousness and intelligence needs to evolve to the point we can accomplish some of these goals without it backfiring.

Or you can be happy with simply driving your Tesla, a token attempt to be a "green" that means nothing and is surely worse vs driving a smaller ICE car.

A token attempt? My power is 97% renewable, so this is more than an attempt. If they would let me do solar panels here, it would be 100%. A token attempt on your part to divert from the solutions.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

FWIW .... for those who were making snide remarks about Norway I looked up the life expectancy of male and female in both countries

USA
Male 76 Female 81

Norway
Male 80.6 Female 84.3

Norway has a world life ranking of number 10 well above the USA


Is it the absence of emissions there or their happiness or both that give those statistics

Steve,

i made no snide remarks about Norway. i held them up as an unrealistic target.......if you actually read what i wrote.

i not only admire Norway and Norwegians (my step Grandfather was from there) but think they are a country most other countries should emulate. but projecting their success to most of the world is simply unrealistic. no poverty, little defense budget, stable government, no built in cultural, political or racial strife, abundance of natural resources, modest population, high literacy, robust economy and a strong degree of national identity. not that hard for Norwegians to live naturally.

kinda like southern Orange County........not a real world place either.

my point was exactly that most countries have such a hole to dig out of that the target needs to be a bit more modest. expecting the world to be Norway is a waste of time. that would be a movie set......not the real world.

 

[PeterA]

The definition of freedom. You cannot criticize policy decisions in Russia or China without the fear of retribution or prison.

All I'm saying is that there are government imposed limits on our choices. And that we are free to criticise both the government and those limits.

 

[PeterA]

FWIW .... for those who were making snide remarks about Norway I looked up the life expectancy of male and female in both countries

USA
Male 76 Female 81

Norway
Male 80.6 Female 84.3

Norway has a world life ranking of number 10 well above the USA


Is it the absence of emissions there or their happiness or both that give those statistics

My guess is that it has something to do with both nature (genetics) and nurture (behavior). It is a fairly small, educated and very homogenous population with a similar set of values. I am not surprised by those statistics.

 

[BlueFox]

On the other hand, Norway gets really cold. Although with man-made global warming that is becoming a moot point.

 

[rockitman]

I am usually an optimist, but this time, not so much. I have little faith in humanity given what I've witnessed over the last 3 years and the resistance of almost everyone to being part of the solution instead of part of the problem. I think we will be embroiled in world-wars in 50 years and the climate refugees will be dying of water and food shortages by the tens of millions.

What is the solution ? Are you sure ? Let's waste trillions of dollars on hypotheses and bankrupt many countires in order to find out.

One last thing Christian........



Your suggestion because climate has been changing since inception, we should just ignore it?????

I know, it makes liberals feel better to do something, ANYTHING whether it has any effect on the problem or not.

 

[BlueFox]

LOL. What are you blabbering about?

 

[KeithR]

questions.....

50 years from now, looking back on how we tried to legislate technology in the name of ecology, i wonder how today might be viewed?

Like when the EU went all diesel back in the 80s?

People forget we’ve had hybrids for going on 2 decades which have had limited success. I think most EV sales come from the same buyer.

 

[KeithR]

FWIW .... for those who were making snide remarks about Norway I looked up the life expectancy of male and female in both countries

USA
Male 76 Female 81

Norway
Male 80.6 Female 84.3

Norway has a world life ranking of number 10 well above the USA


Is it the absence of emissions there or their happiness or both that give those statistics

Small, homogeneous non-industrial society. Not particularly relevant to formulate policy.

 

[tima]

i not only admire Norway and Norwegians (my step Grandfather was from there) but think they are a country most other countries should emulate. but projecting their success to most of the world is simply unrealistic. no poverty, little defense budget, stable government, no built in cultural, political or racial strife, abundance of natural resources, modest population, high literacy, robust economy and a strong degree of national identity. not that hard for Norwegians to live naturally.

Must be the lutefisk.