Husk
I need to correct my post as I misspoke. The trusted member is evaluating Herzan. Let's revisit this after we read his findings.
Thank you for your patience. I apologize for my confusion.
All the Best
Joe
Center Stage 2
- Thread starter steve williams
- Start date
I need to correct my post as I misspoke. The trusted member is evaluating Herzan. Let's revisit this after we read his findings.
Thank you for your patience. I apologize for my confusion.
All the Best
Joe
That is interesting because the footers might behave different on a passive pneumatic platform like Stacore and an active platform like Herzan. I suspect they would sound different again if simply placed on a massive plate of steel.
Joe, is there type of platform that people are reporting give the best and most consistent results from the CS2 footers under components? And are you hearing different results from the speaker footers depending on wooden suspended floors or concrete? Thank you.
YES
without a second thought IMO the best platform is Joes CMS racks. When CS was first developed Joe had commented that using CS footers on his racks results in an upswing in performance by one model.
IOW CS2 on Black Diamond would elevate the user to Maxxum performance and CS2 on Maxxum will elevate to Olympos performance.
I can attest to that fact. Further IMHO the settle in time with CS2 sitting on one of Joe's shelves shortens the settle time
FWIW...
Joe's CMS racks are all scientifically based on the First Law of Thermodynamics and the CS footers are based on Second Law of Thermodynamics
Joe's CMS racks are all scientifically based on the First Law of Thermodynamics and the CS footers are based on Second Law of Thermodynamics
Hi Peter
The first part of your post is quite a compliment. Thank you!
Here's why..........The feet are neutral and they cancel out there own noise, so it seems to me you are more or less wondering aloud if the devices and materials you mention have a thumbprint. That certain devices/materials transmit anomalies or overdamp or underdamp components is not really a guess for anyone as knowledgeable as you, or WBF readers in general. This is true because we judge that some things are better than other things and say so in these threads. What I can say for sure is that CMS works very hard to have no identifiable thumbprint. Could a device or material infect or otherwise diminish the effectiveness of a "good" product. I think most would agree the answer has to be: Yes, based on years of experience this could happen to every product ever made.
The direct answer to your 2 questions is, 1) not that I've heard, and 2) no.
I hope you don't mind the humor, but c'mon, I know you're very smart......
All the Best
Joe
Hi Peter
The first part of your post is quite a compliment. Thank you!
The feet are neutral and they cancel out there own noise, so it seems to me you are more or less wondering aloud if the devices and materials you mention have a thumbprint. That certain devices/materials transmit anomalies or overdamp or underdamp components is not really a guess for anyone as knowledgeable as you, or WBF readers in general. This is true because we judge that some things are better than other things and say so in these threads. What I can say for sure is that CMS works very hard to have no identifiable thumbprint. Could a device or material infect or otherwise diminish the effectiveness of a "good" product. I think most would agree the answer has to be: Yes, based on years of experience this could happen to every product ever made.
The direct answer to your 2 questions is, 1) not that I've heard, and 2) no.
I hope you don't mind the humor, but c'mon, I know you're very smart......
All the Best
Joe
Thank you Joe. Yes, I understand that all materials placed under components will affect the sound differently and to a greater or lesser extent. This can be the supporting shelving or the footers. That is great that the CMS shelves impart less of a sound (less of a thumbprint) than do other shelves. I find your comment about the gasket on top interesting because it suggests the key is what happens above the footer, not below it. Does the energy channeled through the gasket on top dissipate within the footer or is it somehow changed and transmitted down into the supporting shelf structure? If the latter, that might help explain how different shelves effect the footers differently.
What do you think it is about stainless steel that is somehow causing an issue in some contexts? If the footers do not "work" as effectively when placed on stainless steel shelves, what is the result? How does it sound? When they do work effectively, do they improve the sound in similar ways in different systems and contexts? If that is the case, is this some kind of pleasing effect laid on top of the sound the way some components have a character heard to a lesser or greater extent on all the music played through them? This seems implied by some of the user reports.
I had the opportunity to hear a system with four or five full sets of CS footers. This was the only audition, so I do not have experience with how they might work in other contexts. The owner told me they had undergone the full break in period. When I first heard the system, it sounded very different from when I had last heard his system, perhaps three or four weeks earlier. I think the addition of these footers was the only change.
After a couple of hours or so and after hearing a variety of familiar music, I asked if he would mind removing a set of the footers under one component. He did. All three of us heard a change, though we focused on different things and described the change differently. He then removed a second set. We heard a similar change going in the same direction. We continued this with four or five components until the last set was removed. Each time, regardless of the component, the sonic effect was the same, just to a greater or lesser extent depending on the component. I felt that the least effect was under either the DAC or transport, I can't remember.
My conclusion was that these footers do impart a sound, (or they change the inherent sound) just like most things do, and as everyone reports. The effect was more dramatic than all other footers I've heard. My friend's rack shelves are made of wood and I think it has a metal frame structure.
This leads me to ask what you mean by the footers either working or not working given a certain context like the stainless steel shelves. What does it mean when they work effectively? Do they simply change the character of the sound, which is what I heard them do, or is there something else going on that I do not understand?
Finally, I think the top plate on a Herzan is aluminum and not stainless steel, but I could be mistaken. If it is indeed aluminum, then perhaps it is something else besides the material that is causing an issue with the performance of your footers on the Herzan.
Hi Peter
I love your response. This is the writing of the Peter I know!
I copied portions of your post into smaller bites........
Q) Does the energy channeled through the gasket on top dissipate within the footer or is it somehow changed and transmitted down into the supporting shelf structure? If the latter, that might help explain how different shelves effect the footers differently.
A) I'm not sure how granular you want me to be, but I think a realistic answer to the first part is, "yes, in part". Energy dissipates but does not stop there. The only thing that can stop mechanical energy is a vacuum, so we must allow that energy passes in both directions to some extent. I believe I've stipulated that the feet are not intended to be a 1st Law "firewall" against vibration. They are 2nd Law-centric.
I'm not comfortable with the word "changed" unless you mean partially converted to heat. "Transmitted downward" would be a yes, but energy will always move in both directions because you can't stop it, as I said above. Vibration tries to bring everything up to a steadied state of excitement. This implies flow and transfer into the body that is vibrating the least. So, if the gasket/structure below the component is vibrating the least, entropy will flow in that direction. The portion of the foot below the gasket utilizes impedance mismatching to "regulate" the energy that passes, although it would be wildly incorrect for me to assert this as an absolute. I think this feeds into the paragraph below.....
Q) What do you think it is about stainless steel that is somehow causing an issue in some contexts? If the footers do not "work" as effectively when placed on stainless steel shelves, what is the result? How does it sound? When they do work effectively, do they improve the sound in similar ways in different systems and contexts? If that is the case, is this some kind of pleasing effect laid on top of the sound the way some components have a character heard to a lesser or greater extent on all the music played through them? This seems implied by some of the user reports.
A) When I think about impedance mismatching, I focus on bandwidth relative to elastic modulus and thin rod speeds. The atomic structure of an aluminum alloy, for example, is made up of various atoms present in specific percentage ranges. Aluminum, chromium, magnesium, manganese etc and when combined they impart specific properties that are predictable and exploitable with respect to reflection and transmission within solids. I work in a "range" of bandwidths. Everyone who does what I do works similarly in ranges of bandwidth. The tricky part is mastering your bandwidth.
On a personal level, and this is just me, I find steel and its alloys very difficult to master. What I mean by "master" is controlling the flow of energy in a way that eliminates energy spikes from occurring in the higher frequencies. I can do it in inelegant ways by using Teflon or some other gross "hatchet material" that lops off the top end, but I don't like the results. It is either HiFi, or you end up with a trade-off wherein you are forced to allow distortion to occur to ensure that some semblance of upper end comes through the loudspeakers. There is no way to stop the energy spikes, as I implied previously. This is why I recommend folding the silk bags under the feet to create a buffer. I don't work with steel. Others do. That's fine.
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Peter) "My conclusion was that these footers do impart a sound, (or they change the inherent sound) just like most things do, and as everyone reports. The effect was more dramatic than all other footers I've heard. My friend's rack shelves are made of wood and I think it has a metal frame structure."
Joe) I disagree with your observation that, based on your listening experience, the feet impart a "sound". In all of the years I have heard the feet with a host of different components in a host of different systems, I have never heard the feet impart a "sound". I have worked with a host of brilliant designers at shows for years and never, and I mean never, has even one of them said I changed the intended "sound" of their components. I would literally be out of business if your assessment were true. What I have heard is a lowering of the noise floor leading to a greater revelation of the engineering/design of the component. In fact, the feet cannot change the character of a component. The materials are neutral in their arrangement and damping. I find the balance of your observations personally and professionally insulting up to the point below.
Peter) Finally, I think the top plate on a Herzan is aluminum and not stainless steel, but I could be mistaken. If it is indeed aluminum, then perhaps it is something else besides the material that is causing an issue with the performance of your footers on the Herzan.
Joe) Yes, I agree. I think the Herzan is aluminum. But........no one has said the Herzan negatively impacts the footers. But, you just did. Here, you reveal a negative bias. That's fine but please don't create imaginary footer problems where there are none to be seen because, and here's the bottom line, if any device is negatively impacting a component with footers installed, it is to the same extent negatively impacting the component without footers installed.
All the Best
Joe
Thank you Joe for your quick and thorough responses to my questions.
I used the word "changed" and did not mean anything specific when referring to the energy being channeled through the gasket at the top of your footers because I don't really know what happens as details of your technology are proprietary and not openly discussed, or at least I have not seen them discussed. I respect that. I heard the dramatic effect and something must be happening, so I simply came up with that word which I know is vague. I did not know how else to describe it.
You describe the footers as lowering the noise floor and not imparting a sound. I have only heard them once in one system and did indeed hear a dramatic effect, as others have, so I agree they are doing something. I have not described the effect in part because mine is but one opinion of many here on this forum and I do no wish to insult you personally or professionally. I simply wanted to understand more about the philosophy behind your footers and your design goals. I am sorry that not describing the specifics of what I heard has insulted you. That was certainly not my intention, and I apologize for that.
You are correct that I revealed a negative bias. I have heard Herzan devices only once and not with your footers. I think I also got lost in thinking of Stacore having stainless steel while I think of it having slate and then the stainless steel versus aluminum and then from Stacore to Herzan. Regardless, it is a bias which has nothing to do with the combination of the Herzan with your footers.
I have thick stainless steel plates under most of my audio gear, so I suppose I was rather curious when you stated that "any steel alloy could be an issue" under your CS footers. I enjoyed reading about your experience with the material and the challenges you describe from working with it. I had a similar experience, though from a decidedly layman's perspective. After much experimentation with different interfaces, I have settled on a material between the plates and my DIY rack's birch-ply shelves and also between the top of the plates and the stock footers of my audio gear. The results are a significant improvement over my former pneumatic isolation devices. I too find the combination of materials to be "neutral in their arrangement and damping."
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Peter
to me, when you say the CS footers change the sound that implies coloration to the sound. I can say with confidence CS footers do not impart any color to the sound
to me, when you say the CS footers change the sound that implies coloration to the sound. I can say with confidence CS footers do not impart any color to the sound
Well, according to Joe “In fact, the feet cannot change the character of a component” and this is something that does not match my experience with other previously tested feet.
Hi Peter
And I humbly apologize for reacting so strongly. I shouldn't have done so.
My comments were originally about thin, suspended stainless steel or steel alloy shelves. All materials will resonate when suspended and this was the picture I had in my mind when I made the comment.
If I understand your last paragraph, you've damped the SS shelves and it works for you with stock component feet. That's great!
I certainly don't mean to speak for Russ, but I think he's using SS plates under VAC amplifiers resting on CS2 1.5s. I think what makes this work (and I admit I was skeptical at the outset) is positioning the plates on the floor over a rug/carpet. I think this arrangement damps the plates and renders them virtually inert for practical purposes. In other words, you and he have done similar things and made steel work.
All the Best
Joe
Joe, I think you and I are after the same result. I presume that we both want to allow the gear we have chosen to own to perform to its potential. There are alternative ways to approaching and solving this problem.
I think most good designers have their gear set up during the development stage to function, perform, and operate at its potential. When satisfied, they then release the product for sale to the public. My goal is to present the sound from these components as I presume the designer wants them to be heard.
I found that in my case, the rack and component supports, were not allowing the components placed on them to perform as well as what I thought was possible. A friend suggested that my DIY rack was overdamped and "sucking the life out of the music." He suggested I remove my isolation platforms and mass load the shelves with steel plates.
I ordered 1" thick plates for under each component and did indeed find that the steel has a signature as you mentioned. It added a coloration to the sound. I experimented over the course of a few months with different materials under the steel and between the steel and the component footers (top and bottom of the plates). Once a combination was found that did not color the sound but rather opened it up and allowed the music to come through, I realized that the purpose of such supports is to neither add nor remove information from the recording and to not change the way it is presented through the system. "Do no harm" became a kind of guiding principle for me as I tinkered away.
If the goal is to lower the noise floor, it should not come at the expense of losing or altering the musical information on the recording. It should not reduce the subtle microdynamics and information that provide the sense of hall ambiance and make the performance present in the listening room - the information that brings the performance to life in front of you. My pneumatic isolation platforms lowered the noise floor but also reduced the musical information on the recording by overdamping the sound. The birch-plywood and cherry rack was very stable and supportive, but the shelving had a similar dampening effect. The stainless steel plates, after I effectively controlled their resonances, solved this problem.
You seem to have developed a superior solution to this problem for most systems. Congratulations for your efforts. I have simply addressed the problem in a different way with my own satisfying results. People seem very happy with your rack system and component footers. I am glad to have had the opportunity to hear your footers in a friend's system. I appreciate this exchange and your willingness to share what information you can about your goals and the functioning of your devices.
I wish you much continued success with your line of products.
Peter
I think most good designers have their gear set up during the development stage to function, perform, and operate at its potential. When satisfied, they then release the product for sale to the public. My goal is to present the sound from these components as I presume the designer wants them to be heard.
I found that in my case, the rack and component supports, were not allowing the components placed on them to perform as well as what I thought was possible. A friend suggested that my DIY rack was overdamped and "sucking the life out of the music." He suggested I remove my isolation platforms and mass load the shelves with steel plates.
I ordered 1" thick plates for under each component and did indeed find that the steel has a signature as you mentioned. It added a coloration to the sound. I experimented over the course of a few months with different materials under the steel and between the steel and the component footers (top and bottom of the plates). Once a combination was found that did not color the sound but rather opened it up and allowed the music to come through, I realized that the purpose of such supports is to neither add nor remove information from the recording and to not change the way it is presented through the system. "Do no harm" became a kind of guiding principle for me as I tinkered away.
If the goal is to lower the noise floor, it should not come at the expense of losing or altering the musical information on the recording. It should not reduce the subtle microdynamics and information that provide the sense of hall ambiance and make the performance present in the listening room - the information that brings the performance to life in front of you. My pneumatic isolation platforms lowered the noise floor but also reduced the musical information on the recording by overdamping the sound. The birch-plywood and cherry rack was very stable and supportive, but the shelving had a similar dampening effect. The stainless steel plates, after I effectively controlled their resonances, solved this problem.
You seem to have developed a superior solution to this problem for most systems. Congratulations for your efforts. I have simply addressed the problem in a different way with my own satisfying results. People seem very happy with your rack system and component footers. I am glad to have had the opportunity to hear your footers in a friend's system. I appreciate this exchange and your willingness to share what information you can about your goals and the functioning of your devices.
I wish you much continued success with your line of products.
Peter
Have you tried CS feet under your components.
They do not change the sound What they do however is expand the sound stage allowing for an almost real immersive effect as if "you are there". The sound floor diminishes significantly allowing for top to bottom clarity in the sound. Nothing is exaggerated and nothing is removed
My experience Steve was that the CS footers affected the soundstage (and sense of space overall) and "sense of life" consistently on all of the recordings we played, large, small, live and studio alike.
Peter
I was thrilled to read this. You are spot on! Bravo! Stay the course, my friend.
If you don't mind, I'll offer a thought. Be assured, I respect what you have accomplished.
What I am after is removing the 4th wall. For years, I was locked into thinking that music had to be behind the front plane of the loudspeakers. You could manipulate/improve the soundstage, i.e. wider, deeper, higher, lower, quieter, noisier etc. but the front plane was immovable.
It is my clear understanding today that components and loudspeakers are much more advanced than I once thought. Today, I know that removing the 4th wall gives rise to "realism" and listening in the realm of "realism" is something I could never go back from. Components can do it. Loudspeakers can do it. The fun is finding a way to unlock their true potential.
All the Best
Joe
PeterA and I, on opposite sides of the country, and without knowing it, auditioned CS2 feet (me in my system, and Peter in a friend's) at roughly the same time. Interestingly (or not?), when we compared notes, our observations were nearly identical. As I recall, the two most noticeable traits imparted on the sound by CS2 feet had to do with soundstage depth compression and leading edge attack. This despite the components and racks in question being entirely different. Empirically, I observe the soundstage effect in general causally related to isolation which results in damping. That is, I can minimize or enhance this effect by adding or removing isolation and damping. Attack and tautness are a bit harder to pin down but are certainly enhanced by coupling to a (fairly inert) substrate, and affected by the particular method of doing so, e.g. captive bearing, free bearing in cup, etc., and by materials choice, e.g. wood, steel, aluminum, combinations thereof. In the end, it's very difficult to walk the line between isolating and coupling in order to extract the best of both worlds. It's even more difficult or perhaps impossible to produce a one-size-fits-all product that pulls it off universally. So, I don't think we should be arguing over semantics, e.g. "coloration". CS2 feet have a sound that I've heard in my system, in one other system, and then was validated by others during independent audition. But then so do steel plates, which I use although not under every component. I disagree that some combination of rubber O-rings allows the steel plate user to arrive at uncolored sound. No, they allow the user to tune the coloration to their particular preference. And it's ok to refer to the sound of footer products or of steel plates as a thumbprint or coloration. It's also accurate to do so. If it gets you to where you want the sound, then just be happy.
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In post 166 I comment (with pictures) that I have received a set of Center Stage2 1.0 to place under my Aries Cerat Kassandra ll.
Although I do not want to give an opinion yet for being in the eighth day, I would dare to say that these feet do not actually change the character of the component. What I was referring to is that Joe claims that neither foot does it and my experience with Stillpoints and Arya RevOpods is different.
On that we agree
IMO Stillpoints robs the system of ambient sound which takes away all sense of presence as well as immersion
Hi Bazelio
By any chance, are any of your CS2 feet on an SS plate? If so, would you be kind enough to double fold the silk bags into squares and place them under the feet. It would be great if you could report on this thread the changes. Good, bad or otherwise, I'd appreciate your findings. Thanks!
All the Best
Joe
Joe, I didn't use CS2 feet on steel. Also, just to be clear, I only used them on loan for about 3 months, so I'm no longer able to perform experiments.
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