CES 2011: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly
- Thread starter marty
- Start date
Did that post
implied that all DACs sounded the same
Maybe Myles was confused by your +1 which indicated that you agreed with the Super Moderator's post:
Hope this helps.
Go Jets.
I was nonplussed by the big Sonus Faber system. For one thing, I was convinced their right channel was down. But more troublesome was the interaction I had with the Sonus people. I found them to be self-aggrandizing and pompous. This surprised me very much as they re owned by the same folks that own ARC. (BTW, Wadia is also now part of that group). When you speak w Dave Gordon at ARC for instance, you get to speak to a very modest, nice, and honest guy that is not full of himself. I wonder if the parent company would consider moving him to Sonus Faber just to infect his idea of corporate culture there, at least as a "loaner"?
Two more takes on the Lamm system:
"This room was just an Audiophile FANTASY in my case. I've never ever listened to such a realistic piano on a hifi system. Musical involment was at its definitive maximum. I was with a colleague who knows nothing about Hifi and his jaw was dropping." - from http://audioaficionado.org/wilson-audio
http://www.theaudiobeat.com/ces2011/ces2011_bos_lamm.htm
"This room was just an Audiophile FANTASY in my case. I've never ever listened to such a realistic piano on a hifi system. Musical involment was at its definitive maximum. I was with a colleague who knows nothing about Hifi and his jaw was dropping." - from http://audioaficionado.org/wilson-audio
http://www.theaudiobeat.com/ces2011/ces2011_bos_lamm.htm
@font-face ** font-family: "?? ??"; }@font-face ** font-family: "?? ??"; }p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal ** margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Helvetica; }.MsoChpDefault ** font-family: Cambria; }div.WordSection1 ** page: WordSection1; } I enjoyed reading everyone’s input on this subject. While I was at Marty's side during the CES auditions he has commented on and totally agree with his assessments, I would like to add a few comments of my own.
I have been going to CES's since 1976 and have watched a huge change in the overall industry during that time. First, it is truly sad how little domestic product is currently represented on the main convention floor where the big brands exhibit. It is like taking a trip to Asia. Fortunately, there is still a strong US presence among manufacturers of mid level to high end audio gear.
Second, it is sad how little video/image companies value sound, while they try to gain better functionality and images out of their gear. The main convention center was loaded with 3D demo's of various sorts, that make little sense to me unless you are a gamer, in which case you are already smiling. I will say that the shuttered 3D glasses are definitely getting better and more light-weight. In my opinion, the most notable video offerings came from Sharp with regard to their Quattron 4 color technology, which seems to make their panels much more inviting and warm. However, the skeptic in me with regard to show tricks, has me wondering if they have adjusted the Quattron panels to look better than conventional 3 color technology. BTW, I heard a high level Sharp guy mention to another Sharp guy that no one should buy their product for another 2 months because what was on display will be discontinued and replaced with improved products in 2 months.
Other than a non-compelling Sony OLED glassless 3D demo where you had to literally stand on some painted foot prints to get the 3D image (probably to optimize projection angles to each eye for the 3D effect, the single most impressive new technology was also from Sharp with regard to a new algorithm for their LCD screen pixels. It appeared to significantly increase resolution and color accuracy, but then it could be merely another of the many parlor tricks used to demo electronics. My take away-if you do not have to buy a new video panel--sit tight for at least the next 12 months until this current mess is sorted out somewhat. If you need a projector and want to consider 3D, then look at the new Sharp 3D/2D video projector for $4500 with about a 1000 lumens.
My third point is with regard to high end audio and how out of control it has become. There clearly is no longer a sane rationale for pricing in most cases. It seems that electronics and speaker manufacturers have gone the way of cable manufacturers years ago--the higher the price the better. What was most exciting to me about the Magnepan 3.7 exhibit at THE Show was how lifelike they sounded how their dispersion cohesiveness did not drop off as one moved off axis. It was great hearing a $5500/pair speaker when powered with Bryston amps and a Lexicon preamp and nothing special CD sound more realistic than MOST of the $40k+ per side speakers fueled with $100k+ of electronics. Unfortunately, the 3.7’s sounded somewhat lifeless, although still cohesive in the ARC room, despite their use of the Anniversary preamp and a CD8, but with one of their switching amps instead of tubes. The fact that I have heard that amp sound better in other systems with a less formidable front end reminds me just how important the total system is creating the end sound, making it very hard to accurately assess products at a show, even CES. While the KEF $2k 5.1 system is not for everyone, it sure is good enough, even when driven with a mediocre A/V receiver for 95%+ of the population. And quite honestly sounded more pleasing, than most of the systems that we heard in other rooms, especially with regard to life and getting one involved into the music.
While Marty mentioned the Devialet preamp/phono stage/amp/dac, I would like to add my two cents in that while at $16K it is not cheap, there is little out there that can touch it at its price and it sounds substantially better than most of what we heard in the $75K + price range. What is really cool is that for the fashion minded, the unit looks somewhat like B&O designed a floor scale and hung it on a wall, removing the need for most of the black boxes that hog up space on a rack, other than possibly a blue ray and a turntable somewhere. The source material we heard was straight from iTunes, without Amarra, and despite the software’s output shortcomings, it was amazingly satisfying.
Marty and I disagree on this comment, but I will offer my two cents regardless. I have always felt that Bryston products were great for bass, very goo for mid bass and low midrange, and just okay for upper midrange and highs---no longer. Their newest iteration of products are as good as any solid state components with the possible exception of the Spectral 260 and the Pass .5 equipment. They are reliable and hold their value and are basically a bargain compared to other products. While I cannot sort out the difference between their DAC and their digital player the BDP-1, the combination was amazing for what was missing, the bit of digital mush and noise floor that seems ever-present. They sounded much like the Weiss products, which are incredible.
So in summary, I have some hope that value/quality products like the Maggie 3.7’s and 1.7’s, the KEF 5.1 on wall system for most of the world that cares about music, the Bryston electronics, used BAT products and new top end contenders like the Devialet while bring some sanity and respectability back into a category that has become too artistic and arrogant for its own good and has forgotten that there are people who love to listen to music, but do not subscribe to the Robb Report.
I have been going to CES's since 1976 and have watched a huge change in the overall industry during that time. First, it is truly sad how little domestic product is currently represented on the main convention floor where the big brands exhibit. It is like taking a trip to Asia. Fortunately, there is still a strong US presence among manufacturers of mid level to high end audio gear.
Second, it is sad how little video/image companies value sound, while they try to gain better functionality and images out of their gear. The main convention center was loaded with 3D demo's of various sorts, that make little sense to me unless you are a gamer, in which case you are already smiling. I will say that the shuttered 3D glasses are definitely getting better and more light-weight. In my opinion, the most notable video offerings came from Sharp with regard to their Quattron 4 color technology, which seems to make their panels much more inviting and warm. However, the skeptic in me with regard to show tricks, has me wondering if they have adjusted the Quattron panels to look better than conventional 3 color technology. BTW, I heard a high level Sharp guy mention to another Sharp guy that no one should buy their product for another 2 months because what was on display will be discontinued and replaced with improved products in 2 months.
Other than a non-compelling Sony OLED glassless 3D demo where you had to literally stand on some painted foot prints to get the 3D image (probably to optimize projection angles to each eye for the 3D effect, the single most impressive new technology was also from Sharp with regard to a new algorithm for their LCD screen pixels. It appeared to significantly increase resolution and color accuracy, but then it could be merely another of the many parlor tricks used to demo electronics. My take away-if you do not have to buy a new video panel--sit tight for at least the next 12 months until this current mess is sorted out somewhat. If you need a projector and want to consider 3D, then look at the new Sharp 3D/2D video projector for $4500 with about a 1000 lumens.
My third point is with regard to high end audio and how out of control it has become. There clearly is no longer a sane rationale for pricing in most cases. It seems that electronics and speaker manufacturers have gone the way of cable manufacturers years ago--the higher the price the better. What was most exciting to me about the Magnepan 3.7 exhibit at THE Show was how lifelike they sounded how their dispersion cohesiveness did not drop off as one moved off axis. It was great hearing a $5500/pair speaker when powered with Bryston amps and a Lexicon preamp and nothing special CD sound more realistic than MOST of the $40k+ per side speakers fueled with $100k+ of electronics. Unfortunately, the 3.7’s sounded somewhat lifeless, although still cohesive in the ARC room, despite their use of the Anniversary preamp and a CD8, but with one of their switching amps instead of tubes. The fact that I have heard that amp sound better in other systems with a less formidable front end reminds me just how important the total system is creating the end sound, making it very hard to accurately assess products at a show, even CES. While the KEF $2k 5.1 system is not for everyone, it sure is good enough, even when driven with a mediocre A/V receiver for 95%+ of the population. And quite honestly sounded more pleasing, than most of the systems that we heard in other rooms, especially with regard to life and getting one involved into the music.
While Marty mentioned the Devialet preamp/phono stage/amp/dac, I would like to add my two cents in that while at $16K it is not cheap, there is little out there that can touch it at its price and it sounds substantially better than most of what we heard in the $75K + price range. What is really cool is that for the fashion minded, the unit looks somewhat like B&O designed a floor scale and hung it on a wall, removing the need for most of the black boxes that hog up space on a rack, other than possibly a blue ray and a turntable somewhere. The source material we heard was straight from iTunes, without Amarra, and despite the software’s output shortcomings, it was amazingly satisfying.
Marty and I disagree on this comment, but I will offer my two cents regardless. I have always felt that Bryston products were great for bass, very goo for mid bass and low midrange, and just okay for upper midrange and highs---no longer. Their newest iteration of products are as good as any solid state components with the possible exception of the Spectral 260 and the Pass .5 equipment. They are reliable and hold their value and are basically a bargain compared to other products. While I cannot sort out the difference between their DAC and their digital player the BDP-1, the combination was amazing for what was missing, the bit of digital mush and noise floor that seems ever-present. They sounded much like the Weiss products, which are incredible.
So in summary, I have some hope that value/quality products like the Maggie 3.7’s and 1.7’s, the KEF 5.1 on wall system for most of the world that cares about music, the Bryston electronics, used BAT products and new top end contenders like the Devialet while bring some sanity and respectability back into a category that has become too artistic and arrogant for its own good and has forgotten that there are people who love to listen to music, but do not subscribe to the Robb Report.
It's interesting to me that almost all the good-sounding exhibitors at RMAF last Fall used room treatments, yet they appeared (from reports; I didn't attend) rare at CES. Makes RMAF sound like a more inviting place to actually hear high-end audio.
There was some problem with the electrical circuits and the two amplifiers being on different circuits in the room. But by the end of the show, the SF sounded spectacular--with analog anyway. But---the left and right channel were reversed.
As I noted earlier, I managed to read Marty's feedback before going to Venetian this morning so I mad the KEF and Wilson/LAM my first stops.
When I arrived at KEF, I had a double-take. Why? 'cause these are on-wall speakers. Here is the picture:
That said, they were pretty clever in what they were playing. It was dynamic, techno music in surround. The video was as bad as it could get but the sound was well done. It had a ton of snap. Alas, as is typical of these tiny back boxes (we are talking about a 1-2 inch box behind tiny drivers), there is no true bass. The little sub brings the thumping and there is emptiness until you hit the mids and highs. So the sound is bright which can result in one thinking there is a lot of resolution and clarity. But laws of physics don't bend like the movie Matrix
I then went to the Wilson/LAMM room in question. It was full room with many people there standing beyond the seating available. I grabbed an empty chair (the blue one) here:
And wouldn't you know it, the sound was lifeless as Marty mentioned. They were playing Opera music and the thing had no highs and no lows. It was also rather quiet. Yes, I detected some of the lushness I have heard in Steve's midrange performance. But it was quite faint with the rest of the experience not being too good at all.
All this time, there were a couple of guys occupying the love seat. You know the type. Sitting there looking serious and absolutely stiff as if deep in thought or appreciation. Kind of like seeing a guy at modern art museum starring at a blank canvas with you not knowing if he is pretending to understand it or not
Anyway, just when I was going to give up on the whole thing, the two guys stood up. I quick ran over and sat in their spot. Oh wow. The transformation was quite massive. The highs came back. The resolution came back. And midrange became considerably more luscious. Best way I can explain the difference is if you took headphones and pulled their cups out 1 inch. That is how it sounded in the old seat.
Explanation of the effect seems pretty straightforward in my book:
1. The speakers are toed in hugely. This clearly makes for a narrow sweet spot. Where I was sitting before, was completely out of that zone. If I were them, I would not put all of those chairs there, pretending one can have a good experience there. Bookshelf speakers sound better than sitting so far off axis from the crosspoint of the two speakers.
2. There was zero room treatment. I don't care how expensive the speakers and the amps are. You need room treatment for good sound. Almost every good sound I heard was with treated rooms. Sitting in the sweet spot did allow one to hear less of the room but not in other spots.
3. No sub, not enough guts. Let's get real. You need a sledgehammer to move those giant drivers in the Wilsons. The LAMMs just don't have the power it takes to move them. As a result, there was zero bass presence. And dynamics suffered too. In one segment, the levels went up quite a bit but the sound also got brighter. That tells me the amps were distorting. Steve has subs to carry the weight and let the LAMMs do their thing above that. Not so here.
All in all, the experience in an absolute scale went from C- to B+. Clearly not the best at the show but also nowhere even remotely where the KEFs were.
OK, it is 2:30am and I need to get some sleep. Hopefully this stuff is coherent enough
Amir: the speakers were set up the same way last year and sounded magical. That's the Wilson recommended set up (sure Dave set it up) though I don't agree though I understand what he's trying to achieve.
I agree with Marty and went to the room for three of the four days during the show--and Sunday when it should sound the best.
To steal some of the thunder from my show report:
There was a quality missing from the from the many, many rooms full of equipment at the show. Like Marty, I brought my own software, but in my case, that being five LPs. These included Ameniya: Summer Prayer, Freddy Hubbard: Hub Tones (45 rpm reissue), Concertos for Phyllis and Cyril by Malcolm Arnold (EMI 2612), The Ryhthm Devils Play River Music (with Mickey Hart) and finally The Great Kai and JJ (original Impulse A1 release). This quality was "aliveness." Too many systems/speakers, in particular playing back the Impulse recording, really made the music boring,. For me, the best speakers/systems were those that brought the music to life, possessed energy, moved air in areas of the music spectrum, etc. Too many rooms, like the Lamm/Wilson room being discussed was pretty but didn't move me. That's also why in comparison to Marty, I just can't get worked up about the Maggies since they just never break loose dynamically, be those dynamics of the micro or macro type (with that exception of the extraordinay Maggie ribbon whose qualities just aren't met the by drivers further down the frequency spectrum). And I really liked the SF for that reason (among many others).
But there were a handful of speakers, two or three in particular, that I'll talk about in my show report that really brought the music too life.
There was a quality missing from the from the many, many rooms full of equipment at the show. Like Marty, I brought my own software, but in my case, that being five LPs. These included Ameniya: Summer Prayer, Freddy Hubbard: Hub Tones (45 rpm reissue), Concertos for Phyllis and Cyril by Malcolm Arnold (EMI 2612), The Ryhthm Devils Play River Music (with Mickey Hart) and finally The Great Kai and JJ (original Impulse A1 release). This quality was "aliveness." Too many systems/speakers, in particular playing back the Impulse recording, really made the music boring,. For me, the best speakers/systems were those that brought the music to life, possessed energy, moved air in areas of the music spectrum, etc. Too many rooms, like the Lamm/Wilson room being discussed was pretty but didn't move me. That's also why in comparison to Marty, I just can't get worked up about the Maggies since they just never break loose dynamically, be those dynamics of the micro or macro type (with that exception of the extraordinay Maggie ribbon whose qualities just aren't met the by drivers further down the frequency spectrum). And I really liked the SF for that reason (among many others).
But there were a handful of speakers, two or three in particular, that I'll talk about in my show report that really brought the music too life.
Marty and Amir or anyone else who heard the new 3.7s at the show,
Can you describe the room Maggie demo was held?
Are there any photos, dimensions, and sound treatments of the room?
There was a similar buzz regarding the "Mini" Maggies at CES few years ago... but haven't seen any real products. I can see how the 3.7s are more realistic but as a Maggie owner with similar Bryston amps (7BSST-2s), I wonder how I can change my room to achieve the same results...
Thanks,
Ki
Can you describe the room Maggie demo was held?
Are there any photos, dimensions, and sound treatments of the room?
There was a similar buzz regarding the "Mini" Maggies at CES few years ago... but haven't seen any real products. I can see how the 3.7s are more realistic but as a Maggie owner with similar Bryston amps (7BSST-2s), I wonder how I can change my room to achieve the same results...
Thanks,
Ki
I just could not attend CES this year, but I remember visiting the Lamm/Wilson room several times (and always finding Fremer there) - by that time I used to hav my Lamm preamp so I was interested to chat with Vladimir, but Mickey ruined my plans .
Agree on the lifeless description that Marty and some others found again this year, actually I liked the small Lamm/Wilson room just besides the large one better.
Sorry I couldn't make it this time, I find the reports from others highly interesting.... Keep them coming!
.Agree on the lifeless description that Marty and some others found again this year, actually I liked the small Lamm/Wilson room just besides the large one better.
Sorry I couldn't make it this time, I find the reports from others highly interesting.... Keep them coming!
I've removed several posts that detracted from the main topic. For any members whose posts were removed, please feel free to continue your conversation via PM.
Thanks,
Lee
Thanks,
Lee
The Two Maggie 3.7 Setup's
There were two rooms with Maggie 3.7's with completely different sound's. The first was the Magnepan Room--- a rather large room conference room at the Flamingo with the 3.7's set up on on the long axis, toed in severely and about 12-15 feet between the inside edges with the at least 4-5' between the outside edges and the side walls, and at least 3 feet from the rear wall which was covered with heavy drapes. There was also a new prototype Maggie center (no details) that Wendell Diller would address nor explain other than to say it was to expand the sweet spot. Set back about 20 feet were a pair of 1.7's almost as far apart as the 3.7's, also toed in severely. They were at least 4 feet away from any walls. The overall sound was incredible and vital, even with the 1.7's turned off. They never were played without the center so it is hard to accurately assess the 3.7's. The power was three Bryston 28's for the fronts and a 4B for the rears. A Lexicon preamp and an unknown (to me) CD supplied the sound.
The overall sound was wonderful, and incredibly vital, especially when the played Fanfare For the Common Man.
The second room was the ARC room, which was a typical Venetian single king room with the speakers set up in a two step down sitting area probably about 9' by 11'. The 3.7's were less than 18" from the rear wall, which I believe was a huge part of their problem. They were also toed in quite a bit. Sound came from their Anniversary Preamp, their DAC 8 and CD 8, plus a turntable/arm/cartridge combo that I did not note and their DS 450 amp. I have heard all of these components with the exception of the Anniversary preamp and know that they can sound better than they did on that particular day and I know from the Magnepan room that the 3.7's can sound better.
I agree with Marty that Dave Gordon is always the highlight of ARC. He does not have a bad word to say about anyone and in my experience has been very honest with very solid opinions.
There were two rooms with Maggie 3.7's with completely different sound's. The first was the Magnepan Room--- a rather large room conference room at the Flamingo with the 3.7's set up on on the long axis, toed in severely and about 12-15 feet between the inside edges with the at least 4-5' between the outside edges and the side walls, and at least 3 feet from the rear wall which was covered with heavy drapes. There was also a new prototype Maggie center (no details) that Wendell Diller would address nor explain other than to say it was to expand the sweet spot. Set back about 20 feet were a pair of 1.7's almost as far apart as the 3.7's, also toed in severely. They were at least 4 feet away from any walls. The overall sound was incredible and vital, even with the 1.7's turned off. They never were played without the center so it is hard to accurately assess the 3.7's. The power was three Bryston 28's for the fronts and a 4B for the rears. A Lexicon preamp and an unknown (to me) CD supplied the sound.
The overall sound was wonderful, and incredibly vital, especially when the played Fanfare For the Common Man.
The second room was the ARC room, which was a typical Venetian single king room with the speakers set up in a two step down sitting area probably about 9' by 11'. The 3.7's were less than 18" from the rear wall, which I believe was a huge part of their problem. They were also toed in quite a bit. Sound came from their Anniversary Preamp, their DAC 8 and CD 8, plus a turntable/arm/cartridge combo that I did not note and their DS 450 amp. I have heard all of these components with the exception of the Anniversary preamp and know that they can sound better than they did on that particular day and I know from the Magnepan room that the 3.7's can sound better.
I agree with Marty that Dave Gordon is always the highlight of ARC. He does not have a bad word to say about anyone and in my experience has been very honest with very solid opinions.
garylkoh
WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
The best things I discovered this CES were all music.
1) Give Band - they played "live" at T.H.E. Show, and the singer gave me her CD and I played it almost constantly as a demo the next two days. They don't have a publisher yet, and I intend to bring the CD to Winston Ma soon. Great, great music simply recorded.
http://giveband.ca/
2) Blue Port Jazz - Jim Merod came into my room late in the evening on Sat, and for the next hour, we spun track after track of "live" jazz that he recorded. The man is a genius with a microphone!!
http://blueportjazz.com/
3) Cornelius - Japanese musician that was introduced by Touraj (CEO of Roksan turntables).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornelius_(musician)
1) Give Band - they played "live" at T.H.E. Show, and the singer gave me her CD and I played it almost constantly as a demo the next two days. They don't have a publisher yet, and I intend to bring the CD to Winston Ma soon. Great, great music simply recorded.
http://giveband.ca/
2) Blue Port Jazz - Jim Merod came into my room late in the evening on Sat, and for the next hour, we spun track after track of "live" jazz that he recorded. The man is a genius with a microphone!!
http://blueportjazz.com/
3) Cornelius - Japanese musician that was introduced by Touraj (CEO of Roksan turntables).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornelius_(musician)
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