CES 2011: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

[garylkoh]

By the way, I should probably mention that to give Vladimir the benefit of the doubt, The Venetian imposed the use of strict devices that the manufacturers had to use and plug into for AV power.

Marty, you are probably right. All the rooms that sounded lifeless probably used the device. I found that plugging in a DAC to the device made the system sound lifeless.

If you don't use the device, and trip the breakers (each room has its own breakers), the Venetian will charge you $250 to turn the breakers back on. The second time you trip the breakers, it will cost you $650. The third time you trip the breakers, they won't turn it back on for you.

I don't recommend that anybody else do this, but I don't use the current-restrictor devices provided by the Venetian. I use a power conditioner with a modified RCBO that does not restrict the sound.... and take my chances with blowing their breakers. Afterall, $250 is a small risk to take especially if you've brought $600,000 worth of equipment that could sound lifeless......

 

[steve williams]

very interesting observation Gary

 

[MylesBAstor]

Marty, you are probably right. All the rooms that sounded lifeless probably used the device. I found that plugging in a DAC to the device made the system sound lifeless.

If you don't use the device, and trip the breakers (each room has its own breakers), the Venetian will charge you $250 to turn the breakers back on. The second time you trip the breakers, it will cost you $650. The third time you trip the breakers, they won't turn it back on for you.

I don't recommend that anybody else do this, but I don't use the current-restrictor devices provided by the Venetian. I use a power conditioner with a modified RCBO that does not restrict the sound.... and take my chances with blowing their breakers. Afterall, $250 is a small risk to take especially if you've brought $600,000 worth of equipment that could sound lifeless......

That might explain a lot of what I heard.

 

[ack]

I was about to post the same link... his opinion could not have been more different than what's posted in this thread.

 

[lasercd]

Harley's blog made my jaw drop - I had to read it twice. Now I'm tempted to cancel my subscription to TAS.

http://www.avguide.com/blog/robert-harleys-best-ces-1

 

[mep]

Harley's blog made my jaw drop - I had to read it twice. Now I'm tempted to cancel my subscription to TAS.

Don't let it make your jaw drop. Amir sat in a different seat and the system sounded much better than the first time he heard it. Somehow I doubt Harley is tone-deaf. The bottom line is until you hear it, don't judge.

 

[steve williams]

Lasercd

Not sure where you live but if you are in my neck of the woods and want to hear that system give me a call

 

[lasercd]

The thing is I heard it. The only system that I could agree with was the Hansen room. I had to pull myself out of there. I was in the Sonus Faber room and the Wilson/Lamm rooms. In fact when I was in the Sonus Faber room it was virtually empty and I sat dead center. It was a real head scratcher for me. YMMV.

 

[lasercd]

Steve:

I'm outside Philadelphia. I have a feeling it would be a bit of a schlep to visit you but I do appreciate the offer. The thing is I've heard Lamm and Wilson in many conditions. I don't doubt the quality of the equipment or the synergy between them. In fact when I went on my speaker quest earlier this year I seriously contemplated Wilson and listened to the Sasha twice but decided to go in a different direction (Rockport).

My point was simply this - Bob Harley's comments are so effusive and my impressions of the sound of these systems are so completely opposite that I can't say I value his opinion any longer.

If you ever find yourself near Philly and want to spin some tunes and eat some great BBQ (my hobby) you are welcome to drop by.

Ken Golden

 

[Gregadd]

No attempt to curry favor with our esteemed leader, but you have not heard Wilson to you have heard Steve's system.

 

[flez007]

Marty, you are probably right. All the rooms that sounded lifeless probably used the device. I found that plugging in a DAC to the device made the system sound lifeless.

If you don't use the device, and trip the breakers (each room has its own breakers), the Venetian will charge you $250 to turn the breakers back on. The second time you trip the breakers, it will cost you $650. The third time you trip the breakers, they won't turn it back on for you.

I don't recommend that anybody else do this, but I don't use the current-restrictor devices provided by the Venetian. I use a power conditioner with a modified RCBO that does not restrict the sound.... and take my chances with blowing their breakers. Afterall, $250 is a small risk to take especially if you've brought $600,000 worth of equipment that could sound lifeless......

Gary - I have mentioned this to you and some many others - The best sound at RMAF two years ago when we met was yours (Genesis/FM Acoustics/Reimyo) - AAMOF I bought my Reimyo DAC just because of the quality of that room... It now amazes me that you could pull out that great sound with this braker-show-stopper in place....

 

[amirm]

Harley's blog made my jaw drop - I had to read it twice. Now I'm tempted to cancel my subscription to TAS.

This is an interesting quote:

"The immediacy of the music was palpable, the expression laid bare with seemingly no electronics or speakers between me and the musicians."

My question is: would a totally untreated room ever sound this good? If I measure this system, would it be the same as having nothing between me and the instruments in a live setting? Response would be identical. etc. Is that possible?

How would Steve's system sound with all of his room treatment pulled out and his subs disconnected?

 

[Gregadd]

Well, Amir that would mean my system sounds terrible. I continue to think room treatment is over rated because it is the last frontier. Ditto for power cord and cables. IMO

 

[garylkoh]

.... and my room at CES. I had absolutely no room treatment.... but I had a recording engineer come in and say that it sounded like when he was doing the live recording.

 

[garylkoh]

Gary - I have mentioned this to you and some many others - The best sound at RMAF two years ago when we met was yours (Genesis/FM Acoustics/Reimyo) - AAMOF I bought my Reimyo DAC just because of the quality of that room... It now amazes me that you could pull out that great sound with this braker-show-stopper in place....

Flez.... RMAF doesn't require that we use the braker-show-stopper. At that show, we also used the same power conditioner to take care of the poor quality power in the hotel.

 

[amirm]

Guys, I did not ask a subjective question . Claim was that the room with Wilson/LAMM sounded like there was nothing between the music and the listener. I asked if I measure it, would the system have a perfect response.

I did not ask if a system "sounded good." As noted by Marty, a system like the KEF can sound good even though it clearly is not transparent to the music.

So are you guys saying that the specific room in question had a perfect response? If it did, then Robert has good ears. If it didn't, well, we know that answer now .

 

[Gregadd]

I guess what I am saying is the high end was built on untreated rooms. I have found that I returned to rooms and my opinion may change based on some unfortunate music choices. Furthermore a room sounded different when it was packed then it when it was practically empty. Robert Harley may have different musical taste than yours. Lastly he may have done the unthinkable. He may have editorialized based on his prior positive .experience with the system.

 

[amirm]

I think we are talking past each other . I am making a logical statement. Music was recorded. If you play said recording in a room where the waves hit the walls and add and subtract, it can't possibly still be the same sound as what was recorded.

Now, there are speaker designs that minimize such effects. But I am not willing to accept there is such a transparent system exists in a random hotel suite with hard surfaces all over. It can't by definition per above.

As to room sounding different with and without people, that is definitely true. If so, and we accept that people could change the sound, we surely must accept that the hard surfaces would too!

 

[microstrip]

I guess what I am saying is the high end was built on untreated rooms.

Greg,

And for most of us it is still this way. Hifi is mainly concerned with the reproduction of sound with high quality in a domestic environment. Very few audiophiles have dedicated rooms or want to live in the middle of acoustic panels with their heads in a vice.

Happily many great high-end designers think about it when designing their products. This does not mean that all rooms sound the same and often some minimal acoustic treatments or furniture arrangements are needed to help the system.

In this type of environment speaker placement is usually more critical than in treated rooms, and here the help of a knowledgeable installer can be of great help.

Surely I am not considering 120 dB bass levels ...

 

[Gregadd]

Amir we can and have discussed room treatment before. Room treatment is just another type of filter. Inevitably a fitter soaks up both intended and and unintended content. Many don't use it because they think it robs the of its liveliness.

The point is could Robert Harley and Amir, et al listen to the same room and equipment and arrived at equally valid yet opposite opinions.

To suggest that Robert Harley must be wrong because the room was untreated just does not hold water. Indeed on many occasions exhibitors have made a point of using no audiophile accessories and got excellent sound from the hotel room. OTOH speaker manufacturers lament that, despite thier best efforts, they worry because they have no idea what kind of room thier customers will be using.