Changing variables in a review

[Cableman]

Exactly, Tom. It is impossible to say which power cord is non-colored, or accurate, or whatever, if such little differences like speaker toe-in or tilt (the latter, as I vividly experienced last night) matter that much. When and how do you know that your system is a "neutral substrate" on which to test neutrality of an inserted component?

Yes, you can try to avoid components that are *obviously* colored, but between two "neutral" components, how do you know which one sounds more "neutral"? When it comes down to it, this "neutrality" thing is all pretense that does not stand up to scrutiny.

Also, quite obviously, one person's neutrality is another person's colored sound, and vice versa.

The only thing you can gauge is if a system or component allows you to hear the most differences between recordings as possible. This means it doesn't impart too much color of its own, which would lead to a sameness across recordings. But "neutrality", no color of its own? Nah.

Also, how does anyone know how a given recording is supposed to sound or what the recording engineer had in mind? It's impossible to know. Anyone who pretends to be able to chase "accuracy" in that respect should read up on the "Circle of Confusion" by Sean Olive.

Instead of "accurate" or "neutral", a much better criterion is "believable". That gets you somewhere, at least in comparison with live unamplified music.

Yet that still has a lot of subjectivity in it as well, since different people hear the same live sound differently, and prioritize different aspects of it in their judgment of its gestalt. And thus they transfer a range of live sounds differently into a frame of "believability" against which to judge the sound of a system.

I know how a given recording sounds. I use the one I co produced. The one that I mixed that was a top five single from the multi million selling lp I also mixed

 

[spiritofmusic]

Cableman, you're such a tease. You won't fully reveal which reviewers are corrupt and exactly how they are. Nor specify your system. Likely you won't tell us which album you're referring to.
I guess too much for you to reveal your star sign?
You're such a man of mystery.

 

[Cableman]

Cableman, you're such a tease. You won't fully reveal which reviewers are corrupt and exactly how they are. Nor specify your system. Likely you won't tell us which album you're referring to.
I guess too much for you to reveal your star sign?
You're such a man of mystery.

I can’t. I’d think it obvious why. But sadly the endemic corruption I speak of is very VERY real

hey. Want your amp reviewed. No of course you can’t pay me to do a review, but hey I can take some measurements for you instead. Let’s call it a ‘consultation’.

 

[Robh3606]

I couldn't be more happy with my particular system in how it sings today! and is about the only thing that excites me now in todays world being 59 yrs old.
We live and learn each day Robh3606, how many kg do your speakers weigh in at !

Well that's great you are happy with your system. I am happy with mine as well. My speakers?? Close to about 50Kg or so. They are a 2 piece stack with a waveguide up top in a separate cabinet and a 15" woofer in the bass cabinet. The bottoms are hard tops easier. Shuffling them around the room is doable but a PITA on my own!

Rob

 

[microstrip]

Yes, all power cords sound different, even Ching Cheng. Don’t fool yourself that any single one is accurate.

Well, everything sounds different in this hobby - if we get a 40 cm Ching Cheng it sounds different from the standard 240 cm cable.

An accurate power cable will convey all the mains noise to our equipment and the noise generated by any piece of the equipment to the whole system. It this what we want? A power cable that transparently makes our gear sound different when the mains is noisy and surely divine at late hours when mains is at its best? Or do we want power cables that absorb noise and just pass the 50/60Hz power signal?

A tricky question: should we consider that a piece of equipment that is extremely sensitive to power cable type is poorly designed or masterly designed?

 

[dcathro]

What was your question again?

It was more a comment on the pointlessness of this thread, and that there is no correct answer. I think some people just like arguing.

But here is a question:

If you (not you in particular) set up a system in room with amplifier A and were happy with the sound and then you switched amp B, only to find that the mid and treble were superior but the bass was a bit off, would you give up and go back to amplifier a or would you experiment with other aspects of the setup.

 

[Robh3606]

Well, everything sounds different in this hobby - if we get a 40 cm Ching Cheng it sounds different from the standard 240 cm cable.

An accurate power cable will convey all the mains noise to our equipment and the noise generated by any piece of the equipment to the whole system. It this what we want? A power cable that transparently makes our gear sound different when the mains is noisy and surely divine at late hours when mains is at its best? Or do we want power cables that absorb noise and just pass the 50/60Hz power signal?

A tricky question: should we consider that a piece of equipment that is extremely sensitive to power cable type is poorly designed or masterly designed?

The cord is there to get enough AC power/current into the box without any significant voltage drop. I would say poorly because the AC power is not what is used in the gear. It's the DC that is rectified and filtered that is on the power supply rails in the box. All I know is we have millions of dollars in test equipment in our facility doing SOTA noise measurements and not a unique power cord in the bunch. All generic. All the filtering for any line noise in the test equipment is done internally by the internal power supplies. Believe me they are used in an RFI rich environment much worse conditions than any home.

Rob

 

[K3RMIT]

I can say one who is not for sure
john Atkinson his proof is his testing of the dart zeel amps not being able to handle a low Z load. While it raised a big dustup he is correct based on his testing results. one must think how many emails and phone calls he got after. i do agree most reviews are not completely honest. but if it’s done well there can be some wording between the lines to give a glimpse.
for me comments from owners helps too. But what owner would comment on expensive gear in less then heavens gate view. not many they just sell it to buy better.

 

[PeterA]

It was more a comment on the pointlessness of this thread, and that there is no correct answer. I think some people just like arguing.

But here is a question:

If you (not you in particular) set up a system in room with amplifier A and were happy with the sound and then you switched amp B, only to find that the mid and treble were superior but the bass was a bit off, would you give up and go back to amplifier a or would you experiment with other aspects of the setup.

I would read a few magazine reviews and then watch a few Jay’s audio lab YouTube videos and then buy different speakers.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I can say one who is not for sure
john Atkinson his proof is his testing of the dart zeel amps not being able to handle a low Z load. While it raised a big dustup he is correct based on his testing results. one must think how many emails and phone calls he got after. i do agree most reviews are not completely honest. but if it’s done well there can be some wording between the lines to give a glimpse.
for me comments from owners helps too. But what owner would comment on expensive gear in less then heavens gate view. not many they just sell it to buy better.

really?

do we just ignore the manufacturer's response? it's been posted a few times. we just take the static measurement as truth? it's truth for what he is testing. but it's not music, it's a static load. which gives us a data point. but an incomplete picture.

here is a link to the the response here on WBF. it's also in the comment section of the magazine review for those who care.

darTZeel NHB-468 mono blocks in my system

Congratulations Mike. Remind me to never listen to 468s so I don't decide that my 108 is completely inadequate ;)The new 108s have a similar design to the 468s... really just a lesser version.

www.whatsbestforum.com

i suppose we just can never un-ring the bell. it's out there and people parrot it.

 

[Cableman]

really?

do we just ignore the manufacturer's response? it's been posted a few times. we just take the static measurement as truth? it's truth for what he is testing. but it's not music, it's a static load.

here is a link to the the response here on WBF. it's also in the comment section of the magazine review for those who care.

darTZeel NHB-468 mono blocks in my system

Congratulations Mike. Remind me to never listen to 468s so I don't decide that my 108 is completely inadequate ;)The new 108s have a similar design to the 468s... really just a lesser version.

www.whatsbestforum.com

i suppose we just can never un-ring the bell. it's out there and people parrot it.

Never yet heard a test bench make music. Still young so plenty of time…

 

[PeterA]

Exactly, Tom. It is impossible to say which power cord is non-colored, or accurate, or whatever, if such little differences like speaker toe-in or tilt (the latter, as I vividly experienced last night) matter that much. When and how do you know that your system is a "neutral substrate" on which to test neutrality of an inserted component?

Yes, you can try to avoid components that are *obviously* colored, but between two "neutral" components, how do you know which one sounds more "neutral"? When it comes down to it, this "neutrality" thing is all pretense that does not stand up to scrutiny.

Also, quite obviously, one person's neutrality is another person's colored sound, and vice versa.

The only thing you can gauge is if a system or component allows you to hear the most differences between recordings as possible. This means it doesn't impart too much color of its own, which would lead to a sameness across recordings. But "neutrality", no color of its own? Nah.

Also, how does anyone know how a given recording is supposed to sound or what the recording engineer had in mind? It's impossible to know. Anyone who pretends to be able to chase "accuracy" in that respect should read up on the "Circle of Confusion" by Sean Olive.

Instead of "accurate" or "neutral", a much better criterion is "believable". That gets you somewhere, at least in comparison with live unamplified music.

Yet that still has a lot of subjectivity in it as well, since different people hear the same live sound differently, and prioritize different aspects of it in their judgment of its gestalt. And thus they transfer a range of live sounds differently into a frame of "believability" against which to judge the sound of a system.

Different *perceptions*, preferences and perhaps goals.

In the end, you and Ian and I did all those power cord comparisons, both together and separately, simply to identify the power cord we each liked best using our own criteria. I think that is about right. We all made different choices and are happy. So it is with much of this subjective hobby.

 

[Al M.]

So in the end, you and Ian and I did all those power cord comparisons, both together and separately, simply to identify the power cord we each liked best using our own criteria. I think that is about right. We all made different choices and are happy. So it is with much of this subjective hobby.

Yes, Peter, but you claim that your power cords are the best because they don't "enhance" anything, are the most balanced and do the least harm.

That characterization is debatable.

BTW, I used to think similarly about generic power cords (not specifically Ching Cheng). I'll more than gladly admit that I am now eating crow.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Yes, Peter, but you claim that your power cords are the best because they don't "enhance" anything, are the most balanced and do the least harm.

Lol , Nothing wrong with that Al .
Every audiophile will claim his system / approach doesnt enhance anything.

Ps Even audiophiles without systems will make such claims .

 

[K3RMIT]

really?

do we just ignore the manufacturer's response? it's been posted a few times. we just take the static measurement as truth? it's truth for what he is testing. but it's not music, it's a static load. which gives us a data point. but an incomplete picture.

here is a link to the the response here on WBF. it's also in the comment section of the magazine review for those who care.

darTZeel NHB-468 mono blocks in my system

Congratulations Mike. Remind me to never listen to 468s so I don't decide that my 108 is completely inadequate ;)The new 108s have a similar design to the 468s... really just a lesser version.

www.whatsbestforum.com

i suppose we just can never un-ring the bell. it's out there and people parrot it.

Mike it’s Christmas Eve my comment was only to make a point not excite a reply relax ok. I know the maker and have videos of his own system and his at the factory. it’s a fantastic product. there is no no perfect amp.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike it’s Christmas Eve my comment was only to make a point not excite a reply relax ok. I know the maker and have videos of his own system and his at the factory. it’s a fantastic product. there is no no perfect amp.

not questioning intent, just don't post half the issue. refer to the response too. half the issue just reinforces the confusion. the event is fair game when both sides are presented.

Merry Christmas.

 

[microstrip]

Never yet heard a test bench make music. Still young so plenty of time…

Audio Precision advanced audio analyzers have signals to emulate the behavior of music in measurements. Many designers and manufacturers use them during development, but they are not used in reviewing.

For example, Multitones : https://www.ap.com/technical-library/using-multitones-in-audio-test/

 

[Al M.]

Lol , Nothing wrong with that Al .
Every audiophile will claim his system / approach doesnt enhance anything.

LOL, no I'm not that naive. Any distortion, a change from the original signal and music source, is an enhancement, subtractive or additive. A system without distortion does not exist, including mine (no, I'm not talking about amp specs).

Ps Even audiophiles without systems will make such claims .

LOL

 

[K3RMIT]

Mike you or anyone is not here to defend any product but to help. i look up to you ina big way not joking you are somewhat of mentor of sorts.
many posts I make are not meant to imply I know but only view as most do. facts are facts and it seems the maker actually made changes after the review
keep in mind a dart amp is low on global or negative feedback it’s a double ended sword in doing So. The very thing that in some ways yields the amazing sound effects of the amp limits its system compliance. a dart amp and most all of there products are above most at there price point in the sky. It’s a product with out flaws and makes no compromise in looks as well as sound. Did you know the face plates were so Finely made he had many that were to be thrown out. Imagine that so his intent is to truly make the absolute best audio product period. one system he has is klipshorns
a very high level efficient speaker. Even with this playing music loud it still was hundreds lol f watts at peaks
so there is no doubt of its high wattage output overall
in the future all try to avoid prodycts you presently use lol.
merry Christmas to all and happy holidays to all
let’s hope health reasons well in all
of our lives.

 

[PeterA]

Lol , Nothing wrong with that Al .
Every audiophile will claim his system / approach doesnt enhance anything.

Ps Even audiophiles without systems will make such claims .

I actually do not know a single audiophile who ever claimed his system / approach doesn’t enhance anything. How is that even knowable?

I have only claimed that certain things enhance something more than other things to which they are compared based on my observation and impressions.