Comparison on Paper: B&W versus Tidal

[KeithR]

Keith is touchy Jack. B&W built a speaker plant in China and I was not aware that B&W was still building any speakers in the UK. Jack's point is still valid Keith with regards to the B&W speakers in question (not your snooty Nautilus) were made in China and the Tidal in Germany where labor costs are sky high. I would love to hear both to see which sounds better. And for whoever asked earlier, speaker mark-up by the dealer is usually 50%. That means dealers are paying around $29K for the Tidals and $5K for the B&W speakers. So now when you do your math to figure out how much the manufacturer has in his speakers and how much profit he is making, you have to start from what he is selliing them for to the dealer-not what the dealer is selling them for. And please don't forget, profit doesn't equal selling price to dealer minus cost of parts. You have overhead, utlilities, labor, health insurance, cost of money, etc.

Getting back to Jeff's original point, I think this could be a real horse race. B&W has an excellent R&D department and a vast body of knowledge to draw on. Their cabinet shape is interesting and I like the fact they have one more driver than the Tidal. I expect the speakers cabinets to be made of MDF in a $10K floor stander with a diamond tweeter. I don't expect to find MDF in a $58K speaker.

It's not about being "touchy"--- do you realize the push back B&W would get if their highest end speakers were made in China? There is a very, very loyal fanbase out there.

Disclaimer- I have never owned a B&W speaker.

the reason B&W speaker prices are lower probably is economy of scale, as you surmise.

 

[naturephoto1]

It's not about being "touchy"--- do you realize the push back B&W would get if their highest end speakers were made in China? There is a very, very loyal fanbase out there.

Disclaimer- I have never owned a B&W speaker.

the reason B&W speaker prices are lower probably is economy of scale, as you surmise.

The B&W highest end speaker is the Nautilus. I am not sure of the latest list price, but they used to be $60,000 a pair.

Rich

 

[mep]

And in a $180K speaker like the Focal Grande Utopia EM Loudspeaker?

Again these terrible europeans ...

Microstrip-good point. Both Wilson and Magico poo-poo using MDF for speaker enclosures. Magico claims it ruins the sound of their designs and Wilson isn't kind either.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

's point is still valid Keith with regards to the B&W speakers in question (not your snooty Nautilus) were made in China and the Tidal in Germany where labor costs are sky high.

Of course this still doesn't justify the price tag. You could pay full retail for the components and hire a cabinet maker to build the boxes for you by hand and come in WAY under $60k. And of course none of that matters. If people will pay the price, that's all the justification that is required.

Tim

 

[The Smokester]

If the R&D costs are high and the production numbers low, then estimating the cost of a finished/delivered speaker based on the cost-of-parts is ill conceived.

 

[microstrip]

In the good old times that Dynaudio sold high quality loudspeaker kits the Dynaudio disttributor in my country, a good friend , decided to built a pair of Gemini loudspeakers in Dupont Corian - the same material that Dave Wilson used (or we thought he used for his first versions of the Watt), costing several times the price of the kit. I decided to have my pair built in MDF at a fraction of that price. Later we compared them - they sounded very different. Although his speakers sounded much "cleaner", they were not so agreable as the MDF pair, and could become tiresome after some time - we called it the Corian sound. Only recently I read that Corian has some strong ringing modes and that the Watts were damped with lead to nul this resonance. We were really playing the aprentice sorcier - to use advanced solutions you have a deep knowledge of materials!

 

[amirm]

More likely--you are the audiophools who perpetuate this insane pricing that Jeff is poetically trying to debate on his website.

Cordial participation is one of the hallmarks of our forum. Many people came here because their views would not be stepped on. We would appreciate it if you would focus on the topic, and not the poster.

 

[Robh3606]

Everybody knows or should know that the biggest cost of a speaker is the cabinet. The effect of the cabinet on the sound is also much underrated. It makes me wince overtime someone starts looking at the parts.

Hello Jack

To be honest it makes me wince to read that. I was looking at parts cost just to get an idea of what was in the box. I am not really familiar with the Accuton drivers and was very surprised to see a 3K tweeter in the mix.

You could pay full retail for the components and hire a cabinet maker to build the boxes for you by hand and come in WAY under $60k.

Hello Tim

If it was only that easy. You had better have the crossover schematic, a good set of drawings to duplicate the cabinets for the driver spacing and a good measurement set-up to make sure you got it right and of course a good manufacturers measurement set to verify your own measurements with. Without that it's just a bunch of drivers in a box and not a true clone of that system. I understand what you are saying but you need a good deal of information most of which is not published and hidden to even get close to duplicating a finished system. I agree with you about the pricing it seems a bit high.

Rob

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

You could pay full retail for the components and hire a cabinet maker to build the boxes for you by hand and come in WAY under $60k.
Hello Tim

If it was only that easy. You had better have the crossover schematic, a good set of drawings to duplicate the cabinets for the driver spacing and a good measurement set-up to make sure you got it right and of course a good manufacturers measurement set to verify your own measurements with. Without that it's just a bunch of drivers in a box and not a true clone of that system. I understand what you are saying but you need a good deal of information most of which is not published and hidden to even get close to duplicating a finished system. I agree with you about the pricing it seems a bit high.

Is it too high? It's too high for me, but if enough people will pay it, it's just high enough.

Tim

 

[Gregadd]

Of course this still doesn't justify the price tag. You could pay full retail for the components and hire a cabinet maker to build the boxes for you by hand and come in WAY under $60k. And of course none of that matters. If people will pay the price, that's all the justification that is required.

Tim

Tim I get your point. If you think audio is overpriced, just for fun, get an estimate on somme custom furniture. Ouch.

 

[The Smokester]

Hello Jack

To be honest it makes me wince to read that. I was looking at parts cost just to get an idea of what was in the box. I am not really familiar with the Accuton drivers and was very surprised to see a 3K tweeter in the mix.



Hello Tim

If it was only that easy. You had better have the crossover schematic, a good set of drawings to duplicate the cabinets for the driver spacing and a good measurement set-up to make sure you got it right and of course a good manufacturers measurement set to verify your own measurements with. Without that it's just a bunch of drivers in a box and not a true clone of that system. I understand what you are saying but you need a good deal of information most of which is not published and hidden to even get close to duplicating a finished system. I agree with you about the pricing it seems a bit high.

Rob

I second this. If you look at the crossover for Dunlavy SC-IVa speakers there a little capacitors shunting the big capacitors. These were added during the final manufacturing process when each individual speaker was tuned in an anechoic chamber. DIYers have tried to modify these crossovers and messed up their systems because they are unable to duplicate the anechoic testing environment and the knowledge to reproduce the "secret sauce" in the crossovers.

There is no magic required...But it takes time and resources to even duplicate components let alone come up with an original design.

And, time + resources + marketing = money and maybe even value?

 

[KeithR]

Cordial participation is one of the hallmarks of our forum. Many people came here because their views would not be stepped on. We would appreciate it if you would focus on the topic, and not the poster.

My apologies. I don't want to offend anyone here Amir. My comment was more related to the audiophiles in general than any specific person in this thread. I apologize Jack if I offended you. Although if you surmise B&W speakers are made in China, you need to provide backup to support your claim.

One of my pet peeves is that just because it costs more, its better. In this hobby, I can completely vouch for the opposite. FrantzM and I have been stalwarts against obscene audiophile pricing for several years, starting on AVS. I personally won't change. For whatever reason, folks in this hobby love to defend manufacturers and their pricing policies and are rarely critical of them. 5 years ago we didn't have the plethora of 200k speakers for example---or 20k preamps, or 50-100k monoblocks...and its not like inflation has been an issue for several years.

the sad thing is the B&W speaker in this thread is not considered "high end" at a pricing point of 10k. 99% of americans can't afford a 10k speaker.

 

[Jeff Fritz]

I've been following the thread and have a few points to offer:

1. The B&W 803 Diamond is without question high end in both design and construction, and is very, very good sound-wise. I now have a set in my system and will be writing about them shortly. The Diamonds are built in the UK, BTW.
2. The pricing issue has to be examined on a case-by-case basis. There is no other way to do it. I can tell you about some $40k amps that are priced exactly right in terms of manufacturing cost versus retail. I also know some $3k speakers that would be a joke at $1500.
3. I heard some Tidal speakers at RMAF and they were quite good. I'd love to review a set and my article was not an indictment of their product, but instead some thoughts on pricing and how it's justified in some cases, or not as the case may be.

 

[JackD201]

No problem Keith. I'm not made up of pride and will readily be corrected without any need for further qualification. It is the accusation that bothered me, in hindsight I can't really blame you since I was not very clear.

Now granted the Nautilus series is now made in the UK (formerly Denmark), the China angle still figures into the equation. Manufacturing costs are spread out over the entire "basket of goods". B&W is now chinese owned and the bulk of their "basket" is comprised of speakers whose cabinets are INDEED made in their China factory. My proof is printed right on my daughter's B&W boxes. The average cost across all lines thus gives them a price advantage over the smaller concerns like Tidal. Companies like B&W thus have the advantage of maintaining halo lines which I presume have lower returns money wise but make up for these by casting that same halo over products that (after looking it up) are not made in the new UK facility , the loudspeakers that by sheer volume make the dough.

I'd like to make it clear however that to me quality is quality and I don't have any prejudices about where the products are made for as long as they are up to snuff.

This article is very interesting to me because it's apples and apples regarding specs but apples and oranges regarding parts and materials. In the end however it still boils down to which one pushes the individuals buttons. When we're talking 5 or 6 figure speakers, bragging rights at least in my experience has been grossly overstated by those that do not belong to that market segment at that. In my experience folks that can blow that kind of money without blinking go for quality and not flash. If one wanted to spend money to impress, dollars spent on a better wardrobe and a better car goes a lot farther than a pair of speakers.

 

[microstrip]

Tim I get your point. If you think audio is overpriced, just for fun, get an estimate on somme custom furniture. Ouch.

Gregadd,

Other addictions should not be a justification for our common addiction in this forum
Yes, looking for the best can be an addiction ...

 

[Gregadd]

Some equipment required significant R&D and is human labor intensive. Combine that with low sales volume and snob appeal and the prices rise.

 

[garylkoh]

I've been following this thread, but because both B&W and Tidal are my competitors didn't want to comment..... but there is an aspect of manufacturing loudspeakers that has not been addressed. That of tolerance of components.

Most of the parts have a huge variance in tolerance - capacitors +/- 20% is normal, inductors +/-10%. However, beyond the specs, for a capacitor, I've measured +/- 30% ESR even though the capacitance tolerance is supposed to be +/-5%. The drivers that we buy can have up to +/- 6dB.

Some manufacturers, like the Dunlavy example cited earlier, tweak their crossovers to achieve a result that they target in an anechoic chamber. Other manufacturers measure each component, match them, and then use these matched components to build a pair of loudspeakers.

Even with the crossover schematic, you can't just buy the components and assemble your own loudspeaker. You will have to buy lots of each component, match them, and then build the loudspeaker - and the left-over components go into a landfill somewhere.

All that cost and labor add to the price of a pair of high-end loudspeakers. Being German, may be Tidal does it, and B&W does not?

 

[Jeff Fritz]

All that cost and labor add to the price of a pair of high-end loudspeakers. Being German, may be Tidal does it, and B&W does not?

Or maybe B&W doesn't have to, at least for drivers. They are not buying from a driver vendor. I had this experience when visiting the Paradigm factory and seeing that they make drivers themselves for each specific application. This could easily translate into less driver testing at the back end because it is done in QC at the point of manufacture.

So it could be that B&W doesn't incur the cost, but it's not because they don't sweat the details, it's because it has already been taken care of earlier in the process.

 

[garylkoh]

Or maybe B&W doesn't have to, at least for drivers. They are not buying from a driver vendor. I had this experience when visiting the Paradigm factory and seeing that they make drivers themselves for each specific application. This could easily translate into less driver testing at the back end because it is done in QC at the point of manufacture.

So it could be that B&W doesn't incur the cost, but it's not because they don't sweat the details, it's because it has already been taken care of earlier in the process.

Yes, and they have the volume to do it at the driver plant - but none of the smaller manufacturers do. The driver factories can churn out 1,000 or more drivers per day and they will pre-sort the drivers for their customers. Although the tolerance is not as close as I would like, and you have to order 20,000 drivers at a go.

Did you know that the largest speaker magnet factory in China makes 5million magnets a month? It boggles the mind!!

 

[The Smokester]

I've been following this thread, but because both B&W and Tidal are my competitors didn't want to comment..... but there is an aspect of manufacturing loudspeakers that has not been addressed. That of tolerance of components.

Most of the parts have a huge variance in tolerance - capacitors +/- 20% is normal, inductors +/-10%. However, beyond the specs, for a capacitor, I've measured +/- 30% ESR even though the capacitance tolerance is supposed to be +/-5%. The drivers that we buy can have up to +/- 6dB.

Some manufacturers, like the Dunlavy example cited earlier, tweak their crossovers to achieve a result that they target in an anechoic chamber. Other manufacturers measure each component, match them, and then use these matched components to build a pair of loudspeakers.

Even with the crossover schematic, you can't just buy the components and assemble your own loudspeaker. You will have to buy lots of each component, match them, and then build the loudspeaker - and the left-over components go into a landfill somewhere.

All that cost and labor add to the price of a pair of high-end loudspeakers. Being German, may be Tidal does it, and B&W does not?

Yes, exactly. This tolerance issue is the basis for the problem that Dunlavy DIYers have when trying to "improve" their speakers by modding the crossovers or changing the drivers with better-regarded quality components. You just can't read the values off the existing components and use similar-valued replacements. On a forum exchange I read, a fellow who apparently worked for Dunlavy pointed this out...That the crossovers were tuned in the anechoic chamber by trial and error because otherwise the accumulated uncertainty in the components' nominal values caused the output specifications of the speaker to not be met. Most DIYers just cannot reproduce the ability to make the required measurements for a refined design, particularly at low frequencies. (Yes, some people have been known to hang their speakers from 30 foot cherry pickers to try and get rid of the reflections.) Actually, the use of lesser components in Dunlavy's designs was actually one of his "selling points" because he found, the extra labor and facilities not withstanding, it resulted in lower costs at the time.

Generalizing, this phenomena of tolerance and certification also produces $3 bolts in mission-critical applications (NASA, DoD, DOE) when casually you would think they are the same as what you can buy at the hardware store for 3 cents.