Computer Audio: confusing, complicated, & INCONVENIENT. About MUSIC or inner nerd?
- Thread starter caesar
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#1-most audiophiles do not believe in DSP for the whole system signal path. of the one's i interact with regularly none use DSP for whole system signal path. i'll agree that some do use it. in my audio club i'll wager that maybe 10% use it out of 60-100 guys.
#2-i respect you have awe toward Marty and his system. good. but how much better might his sound be with dsd, 2xdsd, or analog in his system? and would it be better by enough to offset whatever benefits DSP is bringing to the table? i don't have the answers to this question, but neither do you or Marty. if Marty applied his intellegence and creativity to a completely analog signal path what would be the result? it might be better.
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Mike
FWIW, you are asking questions that I know the answers to as I have heard his system both with and without DSP. Marty has applied his intelligence and creativity to a completely analog signal path as he has a Goldmund turntable. I have heard it and candidly it doesn't hold a candle to his DSP adjusted room.
And frankly Mike it is not awe I have towards Marty's system but rather a great deal of respect for someone who in a million years I would never have thought would use DSP in his system as he has been down your path Mike and frankly his system sounds better than any all analog systemI have ever heard. He has a Meitner and can play DSD and hi rez files. I am not going to get into a pissing contest about what's better as I used to feel exactly like you Mike until I realized I had my head in the sand
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Co-Owner, Administrator
I would add one last comment. Having heard his DSP system I would bet money that you, me and most people would have difficulty in picking out a high rez or DSD file in his system from the same song played red book
Hi Steve,
How would you characterize Marty's room acoustics compared to your room? What speaker is he using?
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Co-Owner, Administrator
He has the large Pipe Dreams with a pair of Gotham subs
His is a totally different sound than mine but doesn't make one better than the other. Merely a different means to an end. I would truly challenge any of you here who are so bold that you can categorically say that it is easy to pick out DSD, hi rez vs Redbook in his system. You should take the challenge if you are so inclined. You might not like the results
What is interesting is that TacT does not represent the best DRC available, according to those that have used it and move on to Trinnov or Dirac, so there may be room of improvement in his system.
True, but this is not because they tried SOTA DRC on their digital sources, and dismissed it, but because DRC offends their purist sensibilities so they won't try it.
my comment was not a judgement on the merits of DSP/DRC, it said nothing to that question. it was a reaction to Steve's incorrect statement about audiophile acceptance of DSP;
by any measurement, most audiophiles do not believe in it....they could be neutral, against it or uninformed depending on one's opinion.
Steve does not use it in his system either, in spite of considerable acosutical expenditures to optimize things; but how would we know why that is? the only fact is is that he does not use it.
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Really
I will add one last comment as all of you seem to have answers for everything
Two years ago I spent several days hearing Marty's last room in Dallas. While there Marty opened his room to many local audiophiles many of whom are members here. One member in particular who is an analogphile and plays only vinyl had a private audition and after several hours of what he thought was a pure analog signal made a comment that "this is vinyl the way it is meant to sound". He has never been told to this day that he was listening to an all TacT system. But heck who am I to say that the sound was homogenized
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Once again you and I will agree to disagree.
I felt exactly like you Mike and I too love the sound of vinyl but having said that I will maintain my position that in his system you, me and any audiophile you bring to listen to his system will have difficulty in picking out high rez, DSD, RB or vinyl in his system with any degree of statistical significance. Anyone up to the challenge
In fact for several hours we played streaming audio through his system and even that would be difficult to tell apart from Redbook in his room
Bruce B
WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
Cool! I would like to hear it when you get it going if that is ok? Could be an interesting meeting for the club.
I have my doubts about full frequency DSP, as I have yet to hear it not degrade the sound. But I still have an open mind.
Really Steve. DSD does not sound like PCM. If you want all your source material to sound the same, it sounds like DSP is the way to go. Is that really the goal?
That's why I'm saying that DSP homogenizes the sound. In Marty's setup, does the DSD get converted to analog and then fed to the DSP beast and converted back to PCM and then the signal gets massaged and converted back to analog?
That's why I'm saying that DSP homogenizes the sound. In Marty's setup, does the DSD get converted to analog and then fed to the DSP beast and converted back to PCM and then the signal gets massaged and converted back to analog?
Emphasis mine. That means absolutely nothing. Speaking for myself, I have heard Steve's system on several occasions and love it ... I am not going his route, nor would several people who have heard his system and raved about it. Their choice would be speakers and gear they love. Not speaking for Steve but he did consider going the DSP route so enthralled he was by it and posted about that... Marty was one of those who advised him not to.
Now for the most audiophiles being against DSP, difficult to know. The sampling is yours and likely you will frequent a group that adheres to your way of looking at things, same for any of us. I am all for DSP. We audiophiles, have as a group only recently become aware and accept the importance(preponderance) of the room in the final sound. To this day many audiophiles some very vocal and active on the WBF are not convinced. Some would like to see a unique and universal way of dong Room acoustics as a validation of the notion. For others something not worthy of their attention stating post after posts that they have heard great sounds in room that shouldn't be adequate or bad sound from room that were treated. And that cable would make a larger difference.
Once it comes to digital the polarization is extreme. You may have seen someone raving about an LP as being spectacular until another person comes with the information that the album was from a digital master, suddenly, the value of the album is diminished sometimes and amusingly , even by the OP him or herself
... So for most the very idea that their precious analog signal has to go through some digits is anathema to their worldview, an abomination. It will not change easily but many have trust their ears , a mantra so repeated by my fellow audiophiles and have put their prejudice aside and go toward DSP. I don't see this changing and I believe that the number of adopters will only rise with time and more exposure to better and less expensive DSP.I would say with out any qualms that in my opinion and in the bass nothing can even begin to match what a properly configured DSP can do, seems that in the bass it should be mandatory except for over the top and brutally expensive passive room treatments and even then.. a judiciously applied correction in the bass through DSP can bring that last level of performance to the reproduction.
Last but not least,this is anecdotal and shouldn't be construed as any kind of proof, I have seen serious vinyl head utterly fooled by digital needle-drops. Of course with knowledge removed. I remember that even Mr Analogue himself Michael Fremer mentioning that with knowledge removed, it would have been difficult to pick an LP from its redbook copy apart. I would say that is pretty high praise of Redbok CD IMO.
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Steve,
Are you sure that Marty is using DSP in his VTL 7.5 mk3 - Spectral line? I exchanged a few PM's with him about his system after he got the Spectral and I did not get this idea. Perhaps I am wrong, I can not find the messages now, but I think that a critical point of his system was the good match of impedance between preamplifier and amplifier. Let us hope Marty can help on this point.
Steve,
You are going in a risky zone - the audio challenges. Did you manage to pick anything in your system with statistical significance?
BTW, what was the bit rate of the streaming audio you are referring?
The trial is only for two weeks after you install it; I think. Which ADC and mic are you planning on using to measure?
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